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Thoughts on trimming neck profile / reshaping neck?

CraigHensleyCraigHensley Maine New Barault, Mordeglia

What are your thoughts on reshaping the neck profile on a gypsy guitar?

If I wind up keeping my Barault, which is an outstanding instrument, the only caveat I have with it is the neck profile has a broad shouldered C-shape that isn't the quickest whip in my quiver. I know many Selmers traditionally have larger necks.

Amazingly, I measured it with digital calipers and its nearly identical in width and depth to my other guitar. I was surprised when I measured them both, in all honesty, as they feel remarkably different.

I've heard some folks say that removing mass from a neck will result in a tonal difference, but increased ergonomics is always a plus in playability.

Do you learn to adjust and play with the larger trad neck profile as the luthier intended, or would you move forward with a slight profile trim to increase ergonomics and playability?

I have a very skilled luthier / repair guy able to do this job and apply a finish.

I'm curious on your personal views, opinions, and experiences in this realm.

Much appreciated!

djazzy
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Comments

  • djazzydjazzy New Riccardo Mordeglia, AJL
    edited October 2024 Posts: 97

    To repeat myself from another thread, I'd love it if thickening/thinning necks on guitars were a thing.

    Gotta say though, I find clubby rounded profiles a lot more ergonomic than the slim, modern kinds. I asked my guitar repair guy (who has a fair amount of experience with restorations and the like) about fattening one, and he just gave me a "nope" look - end of story. It seems shaving down is possible but what I want? no. I'll add that I at least had the neck profile of my guitar measured at various points so the next time I order a new guitar I can request the exact neck I want.

    I'm curious if someone more knowledgeable than me can chime in and comment on the tone issue.

    CraigHensleybillyshakes
  • pdgpdg ✭✭
    Posts: 494

    It can affect the tone and sustain. It will definitely decrease the market value. If there's a truss rod, you'd have to be careful that you don't remove too much thickness from the back of the neck, but even so you'll probably have to adjust the truss rod to compensate for decreased neck stiffness. If there's no truss rod, the neck relief may increase, as it was built with the existing neck stiffness.

    CraigHensley
  • Jangle_JamieJangle_Jamie Scottish HighlandsNew De Rijk, some Gitanes and quite a few others
    Posts: 280

    If you've measured them with a caliper and they're very similar, perhaps the feel has more to do with other details. One thing that can make a difference is a chamfer to the edges of the fingerboard, top and bottom. This is something that I've added on some guitars in the past, though not all. You obviously have to chamfer the fret ends as well which needs care and patience when finishing and polishing. You may also find that the top and bottom E strings are too close to the edge after chamfering, in which case a new nut with a slightly closer string spacing will be required (and possibly bridge too).

    The other thing which I find really improves playability, is extra wide but low fret wire. My Cholet came with both chamfered fretboard edges and nice chunky frets. It plays like a dream.

    Another final tweak could be polishing the neck and getting it really silky.

    CraigHensley
  • pdgpdg ✭✭
    Posts: 494

    On the guitar you like the feel of, you can measure (1) the neck relief, (2) the action, and (3) the space between the first fret and the strings (which is mostly due to the height of the zero fret related to the height of the other frets). If you can replicate that (by bridge, truss rod, and zero fret adjustments), then the only other difference, theoretically, would be the neck shape.

    Jangle_JamieCraigHensley
  • CraigHensleyCraigHensley Maine New Barault, Mordeglia
    edited October 2024 Posts: 85

    Thanks for the input, guys!

    @pdg I didn't consider neck stiffness in the equation of removing mass. I think I'll keep it as is and not disturb the structural integrity of the instrument. Also, measuring both instruments for relief, action, ect is great idea.

    @Jangle_Jamie The frets are quite thin, and though there's no visible fret wear, a fret job could certainly add to the playability without altering the neck. I didn't consider a chamfer. This ones fairly square edged. A lot of other guitars nowadays come with rolled fingerboard edges that increase comfort and playability. Do you have a pic of your Cholet's fret wire and chamfer so I could compare?

    Jangle_Jamie
  • Jangle_JamieJangle_Jamie Scottish HighlandsNew De Rijk, some Gitanes and quite a few others
    edited October 2024 Posts: 280

    I won't take any photos as it would be very hard to spot any great difference. I love the feel of my Cholet neck and fingerboard. It's rounded and does not have any squareness to the profile. I've measured it and compared it with a Gitane 255 which I have. I find the 255 profile is just a bit too slim and not as smooth and easy.

    If anyone's interested, here are a few measurements:

    Cholet fingerboard width at zero fret is 44mm and string spacing is 37mm (centre of top E to centre of bottom E). The 255 is identical in these measurements. Fingerboard width at the 12th fret for both guitars is 56mm. The string spacing on the Cholet is however narrower at the bridge at 45mm, as opposed to 47mm on the Gitane. That makes me think I will make a new bridge for the Gitane and match the string spacing of the Cholet and see what difference that makes to playablity. Both guitars have a gentle chamfer on the edges of the fingerboard.

    The depth of the neck (thickness, from the back of the neck to the top of the frets) is 22mm at the 1st fret on the Cholet, and 21mm on the Gitane. At the 9th fret, it's 25mm on the Cholet and 23mm on the Gitane.

    The fret wire on the Cholet is 2.5mm, and 2mm on the Gitane.

    I can't imagine a better playing guitar than my Cholet.

    If your luthier was to take 1mm off the 'broad shoulders' of your Barault neck, it could make all the difference. I'm not the biggest fan of the more square profiled necks.

    I also have a Dupont Busato and am considering adding a small chamfer to the fretboard edges. I've only had the guitar for about six or so months, so am just making sure it will be an improvement as its playability is already pretty good.

    CraigHensley
  • DeuxDoigts_TonnerreDeuxDoigts_Tonnerre Lawrenceville GA USANew Stringphonic #503 Basic, Altamira M30D, Eastman AR810CE, Giannini Craviola
    Posts: 57

    My main gypsy guitar has been an Altamira and I find the neck profile on it very comfortable. The same with my Strinphonic 503, it played like butter right out of the box, felt wonderful and took no time for my hand to acclimate to the neck on it.

    I had a Gitane 250M at one time which had a much thinner neck, almost like a Stratocaster's neck. Playing rhythm two songs in and my fret hand would start to hurt, like not in a good way. Nice guitar but did not suit me.

  • Posts: 152

    I had a Gitane 250M at one time which had a much thinner neck, almost like a Stratocaster's neck. Playing rhythm two songs in and my fret hand would start to hurt, like not in a good way. Nice guitar but did not suit me.

    My first GJ guitar was a 250M and while I never experienced any pain from playing on it, my conclusion about the super thin neck profile is that it can actually be a hinderance to developing proper rest stroke technique, at least once you've reached an intermediate level. That's why I generally recommend picking up an Altamira or Eastman to beginners if they want to start off on a guitar with a neck profile that's far closer to what you find on luthier built guitars.

  • WillieWillie HamburgNew
    Posts: 872

    @voutoreenie Maybe I got my wires crossed, but I don't see the impact of neck profile (fretting hand) on rest stroke (picking hand).

  • Posts: 152

    @Willie - Sorry for the confusion and I'm probably conflating terminology a bit...I'm talking about playing left hand arpeggio forms and other common GJ progressions, which need to align with the right hand in terms of playing double down strokes and other picking techniques which are more ubiquitous to rest stroke. Maybe I'm an outlier on this but I've had a far easier time playing GJ phrases/arpeggios/licks/etc. in terms of having both hands sync up perfectly on a "normal" profile neck like on an MD50 compared to my 250M - the 250M "shredder" neck just held my technique back in many ways, which I discovered pretty quickly after acquiring my first luthier built guitar.

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