Gypsy Picking Bebop?

BluesBop Harry

I like Serge's playing a lot...but it's my opinion that he sounded better before he stopped using GP, like on the Django Legacy video around 20 years ago.


He's changed a lot and I personally liked his earlier stuff better particularly his sound and the phrasing.

Serge rules anyway.

Teddy Dupont

Here is a relatively recent piece from Krief that I think really swings:-

Soref

cantzon wrote:

In my opinion this will lead to the player having to prerehearse almost all of the patterns he plays. That's why quite a few of the gypsy guys repeat themselves whereas people with more modern techniques will be more free to improvise. That's just my 2 cents and not meant to piss anyone off.

I don't know about that. I think Django improvised as freely, if not significantly more, than most alt pickers out there, and I feel like I hear Bireli repeat himself about as much when he plays a' la Benson as when he's doing straight Gypsy Picking. I think the aesthetic in certain parts of the gypsy jazz community has a lot more to do with the repetition. It's become common practice for many to copy licks verbatim from other players (mostly Django, but also Stochelo, Bireli etc.) and string them into a solo. I think I've even heard that some of the gypsy kids are taught to play this way, by learning etudes kind of like in the Gypsy Fire book. There's nothing wrong with this, and for some players spontaneity and freedom are not as important as giving the music a certain feeling, or perfect execution. Some of us like to hear more creative players like Django, but that's an aesthetic choice. I think it's less a function of the technique than you might think. That being said economy picking, cross picking, Gypsy picking etc. all have certain types of phrases that are easier to play. It seems in any style you're going to see the technique dictate the music at least a little.

Regards,
Jack

P.S.
Cantzon,
I hope this doesn't sound condescending because it's not meant to be, but I think you still sound pretty confused as to the basic mechanics of gypsy picking. The basic motion involves letting the pick drop from about an inch (or a little less) above the string and letting the pick play through the string and come to rest on the adjacent string below. Upstrokes are achieved by flicking your wrist back in the air. You can do all this with almost no muscle tension, it's that shaking out a match motion. (Michael Horowitz explains it way better in his book). Due to the character of the motion it is desirable to play downstrokes and upstrokes at very different times than when employing the wrist motion used for alt picking, or Gambale style. Gambale style is pretty much what I did before playing with Gypsy picking and they are worlds different whether you're going up or down. The pick direction is not what makes it gypsy picking, it just facilitates the motion. That's why the style doesn't have a lot of the same descending picking patterns you see in Gambale style playing. I hope that's helpful.

Soref

I have to say I like old Serge and new Serge. There were some free mp3s on a site of his years ago that were really awesome. From the character of the tone they sound like he was using his new technique, it definitely wasn't the really intense Django Legacy era sound. But man those are great tracks, and are great Gypsy Jazz. I can't hear the track Roger put up. It seems like I can never access the uploaded windows media files on the forum. I wish I could though, I'll bet it's pretty hot.

There's a character to Serge's tone that still suggests the style to me even when he isn't gypsy picking. I feel like I hear a bit of the same from Gary potter, Ken Sykora, and maybe Henri Crolla. Patrick Saussois has a tone that's different from pretty much everyone else but it still has a feel I absolutely like for the music. I don't think I would've guessed that he gypsy picks from just hearing him on the Alma Sinti stuff. Interestingly his acoustic playing on the Dorado/Tchavolo Gypsy Reunion album sounds much more "gypsy" to me. Patrick's sound definitely can't be a function of his left handedness/alt tuning, cuz Kaatchie Rosenberg plays the same way, and sounds just like the other Dutch Sinti.

Anyhow just some random thoughts about the style.

Regards,
Jack

BluesBop Harry

Thanks a lot for that track Teddy!
It does swing hard and I loved it! What album is it from?
I didn't mean to say that he stopped swinging when he dropped the GP technique, just that I liked his earlier sound (and phrasing) better... and I still do.
There are many great Jazz manouche players that don't use GP, I just don't see that as a good reason not to, I really like the results it gives, and that's me personally, not because anybody told me to, I chose for myself and I'm happy I decided to learn it.
I would encourage anyone else to learn it too.

The ideal for me would be to use many different techniques at different times for different results, like Bireli or Andreas Oberg do.

Soref:
What's that alternate tuning? I've never heard about it before, sounds interesting.

Cantzon: I agree with Soref, I think you still don't understand GP.

Why don't you download the short lesson? Here's the link, it's lesson 3:
https://shoppingcart.djangobooks.com/ca ... ssons.html

Soref

I was just referring to how Patrick plays "left-handed" on a "right-handed" guitar. So everything's sort of backwards for him. Turn your guitar around so that you're holding the neck in your right hand and that's how Patrick and Kaatchie play. It probably makes things easier for playing left handed if you're passing random guitars around a campfire, you're not stuck playing just your own.

regards,
Jack

BluesBop Harry

Oh, I get it now.
Thanks Soref.
I thought they played in something like DADGAD!!!

I just noticed that Chriss Campion plays the last solo on the video Teddy posted. Great player and beatiful Favino.
Incidentally,
Did anyone else noticed that Richard Chiche seems to be playing the same round-hole guitar since the Django legacy era?
What is it?
And...
What guitar does Serge Krief play?

cantzon

What you say about the gypsy picking technique involving the pick coming into contact or "resting" on the next string just isn't true at higher speeds. I've spent hours with Finetunes looking at clips I downloaded using Tube TV. So I've been looking very closely in slow motion.

What I stated about Angelo Debarre's picking on the lick in La Gitane holds true. He is absolutely not coming anywhere near the next string and if he did there's no way he would be able to generate that kind of speed on that lick.

I'm currently playing that lick at exactly the same speed he plays it using alternate picking which is what he is using. The articulation is there and all of the notes are clear. I just have to piece together the rest of the song. I'm not far off and remember I haven't used a pick in about three years. I just picked up using a pick again in the last month and am doing almost exactly what I did the first time albeit with a much heavier pick.

You can condescend to me if you want to. I take nothing personally. What I was trying to offer is some outside insight. But if you are convinced I am wrong that's fine with me. Keep doing exactly what you are doing. Ultimately the results will speak for themselves.

CalebFSU

I am not sure what Serge is playing now but I loved the Favino he played in the Django Legacy film. Kind of makes me wish I still had a working VCR. I haven't been able to watch Django Legqacy in years now, and I want to again. My roomate has one of those dual head DVD/VCR's but of course the VCR doesn't work.

Soref

cantzon wrote:

What you say about the gypsy picking technique involving the pick coming into contact or "resting" on the next string just isn't true at higher speeds. I've spent hours with Finetunes looking at clips I downloaded using Tube TV. So I've been looking very closely in slow motion.

Really? I'd be interested in what video footage you're using. Though that motion is quite big at slower tempos you're right that it gets smaller as people play faster. But it really doesn't take all that big a motion to make contact with the next string the motion itself can look very small, and if you're looking at the front of the hand it can be pretty hard to see. Most people angle their pick which also makes the distance to the next string that much more negligible. If this is compounded with a large pick, even more so. If in the footage you have a clear view of the pick and the strings at these high tempos. maybe a view from underneath the guitarist's right hand, that would probably be helpful.

You're right the results do speak for themselves. From everything you've said you sound like you're a very good guitarist. I have never been one to say people have to gypsy pick to play this music, or that that is the only way to achieve speed on guitar. The thing is it's very rare for a free alternate picker to get that tone that Angelo Debarre, and other gypsy players get. There are people out there who do, Don Vink is another guy who comes to mind. He's a free alt picker and he definitely has a great gypsy jazz tone. He's a great player and he's held in high esteem by the Sinti in Holland. I just wonder if you're achieving that tone when you play those La Gitana runs. I'm not talking about a good tone or round tone, but that sound that the GP technique gets. If you do kudos, and kudos anyways, if you don't. I think that's one of the biggest signs of that technique in action. You can just hear it.

I'm just saying the techniques are possibly more different than you think. Pick direction aside what does it sound like?

Anyhow, that's quite enough out of me. I'd love to hear you're playing you sound like a great guitarist, and kudos for exploring many styles. Mostly I just want share what I've learned from the hours I've put in.

Regards,
Jack