quality guitars

scot

I've been watching with interest the discussion where a couple of group members are having problems selling their Park guitars. It raises issues that I have wondered about and have not seen addressed.

I came up in musical cultures that really valued quality instruments - the parellel worlds of Travis/blues/ragtime fingerpicking and bluegrass/old-timey music. If you were a serious guitar player, if you wanted to be taken seriously as a guitar player, then you would have a serious guitar or three. At the Galax fiddler's convention during the 70s and 80s, there would be hundreds of guitar players there, and I would say that 98% of them had quality guitars - Martin or Gibson mostly, but also the occasional Gallagher, Gurian, Epiphone or similar. But basically no cheap guitars at all. Of course, those were times when you could buy a used xx-18 Martin or a J-45 Gibson for around $500...

If you look at Jacques Mazzoleni's website, he has sold a LOT of quality Selmer style guitars - dozens and dozens of Selmers, Favinos, Busatos, Anastasios, Dimauros - yet the relative merits of these guitars are rarely discussed here. Where are these guitars and who is buying them? Very few guitarists on this forum (or the yahoo forum either) seems to have these kinds of instruments. Most of the guitar conversation here is either about cheap guitars, or else inane and endless conversations about strings picks and such. Has the seemingly infinite amount of contradictory information on the internet made it impossible for modern players to make a confident decision about such mundane matters as strings and picks? Does the easy availability of cheap but good-looking guitars mean that the guitar culture at large is losing interest in quality guitars? Or is all of this more a reflection on the people on this forum - that the majority of people who post here are relative newcomers or not really committed players at all?

What's the deal? Is there a younger generation of players (I am 52 years old) who simply don't care about having a quality guitar the way I did when I was starting out? I still remember how jazzed I was, going to buy my first Martin, a beat up 00-18 - for $575, no case. I had worked and saved hard to get that guitar, now I was finally going to have my Martin! I felt like I had made a real step up as a guitarist, I was now a serious player. That was in 1975, I was in the Marines and $575 represented a months pay, and to this day I think that guitar made me a better player, helped me to mature as a guitar player. The jolt I get every time I play my Favino hasn't diminished one bit in the 13 years I've had that guitar either. Do the folks on this forum who are going on and on about these cheap guitars simply not recognize the value of a fine guitar? Is it a money thing? I don't see how that could be - Taylor, Collings, Santa Cruz and other expensive small shop guitars sell like crazy. What is it about this little corner of the guitar world that so many people appear to be so willing to settle for a cheap guitar? Because make no mistake, these budget imports are light years away from the luthier guitars. Is this change in attitude happening in other sectors of the guitar-playing world, too, and I am out of touch? Is it because there are so many other things like computers, ipods, automobiles, craft beers, $100 concert and sports tickets etc competing for spare dollars, there is less money for that fine guitar?

Don't get me wrong - I don't mean to insult anybody here. I own a Saga myself - it's the guitar I keep at work. I spent the $600 just to see what all the fuss was about. But I've also owned around 40 quality and/or vintage guitars over the last 30 years, and I've been strongly interested in the entire acoustic guitar world most of that time. I've never seen so much interest in low-quality guitars by so many people. Honestly, until the last three or four years or so, I'd never seen any interest in inexpensive guitars at all. So - what happened?

Regards
Scot

pallopenna

Hmmm. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm a relative newcomer to this style (although not to the guitar) and in the last 18 months have bought a Park, had Michael Collins build me a 503-style, and bought a Dupont MD-50. So, at least some people here are interested in quality guitars!

I would hazzard a guess, and it's just that - a guess - that point you're making is right on, but is due to the fact that 1) this is a very idiosyncratic style of playing that is played on very idiosyncratic instruments and, 2) it's a very demanding/difficult style to master. For a lot of people on the forum I would bet that the combination of these reasons makes for a comparitively conservative attitude with regards to investing in quality guitars.

Another question that occurred to me is to wonder if some of this isn't also due to which side of the pond most of us are on. On some much earlier thread someone - I seem to recall it was Nick, but I could be wrong - mentioned that European Selmer/Favino style guitars have different characteristics than than those of North American makers. I can't comment beyond my personal experience with my guitars. But if that's true, then it also must be true that it will be harder for the average person over here to try out guitars that are made over there (as it were), and hence also lead to less willingness to spend money on quality instruments.

My problem is the opposite: I'm trying to keep myself in check and not to go out and invest in and AJL, a Favino, or a Hahl. It's also possible to spend too much energy (and money) buying guitars and not enough time playing them. I did this with steel strings for a long time (I've got a Tony Rice, a Bourgeois dread, and a Goodall Grand Concert for sale btw).

Idle thoughts from an idle fellow...

-Paul

Fopa

I think you will find that your assumption is wrong. Almost all the gypsy players I know that play professionaly have fine guitars. Duponts, which can run from about $3250 to $7500 these days, Parks, which start at $3400 and go up from there, (Shelley is making me my second Parks, it's Brazillian and I've been afraid to ask her how much it will be). Occasionaly a Del Arte, the good ones are over $3000, and there are a lot of fine European luthiers that many of the French Gypsy's play on.

This is the same price range as a good Martin D28 or D35. How much does a player have to spend to meet with your approval?

I've also spoken with a number of pros that have had the opportunity to play Selmers, and for the most part they said they didn't sound that great compared with many of the new guitars. When you buy an old Selmer and spend $25,000, your paying for the rarity and because Django played one. That doesn't make it a good guitar.

And yeah, there are lots of beginners on this board, and I don't think it makes a lot of sense to spend big bucks on what is a specialty guitar until you find out how you take to playing the music.

MichaelHorowitz

scot wrote:

Do the folks on this forum who are going on and on about these cheap guitars simply not recognize the value of a fine guitar? Is it a money thing? I don't see how that could be - Taylor, Collings, Santa Cruz and other expensive small shop guitars sell like crazy. What is it about this little corner of the guitar world that so many people appear to be so willing to settle for a cheap guitar?

Hi Scot....I think a lot of it is just the market for Gypsy Jazz is tiny. No matter how many high quality luthiere Selmer built guitars are sold, they will never compare with the flat top world. The flat top market is at least 50 times the size of the Gypsy Jazz market. So if you think in terms of percentages, I'm sure it works out that there are as many, or even more Gypsy jazz players buying high quality instruments. You also have to keep in mind that everytime someone buys a MArtin or a Taylor, about 1000 people buy a cheap Asian made flat top. It's really no different, there's tons of folks playing cheap flat tops too.

I think it's also worth considering that Selmers and Favinos were not exactly high prestige guitars in their day. Scot, you could probably shed more light on this. Buy my general feeling is that these were guitars for working musicians. Especially the Favinos...they were relatively cheap guitars played mostly by Gypsies. Only through the rising popularity of Gypsy jazz have they been elevated to the status of boutique guitars. J.P. Favino obviously saw the writing on the wall in the 90s...he switched the Favino operation from a 4 man workshop making a dozen or so affordable guitars a month to just him making 6 very pricey boutique guitars a year!

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django'spooltalent

Well here's my story. I've only been playing guitar for about two years, and two months into it I started learning gypsy jazz. Gypsy jazz isn't too widely known, so I think alot of people (young adults) are interested but don't want to take the plunge to spend up to 2000 or more on a guitar which they think might only be suitable for this style of music (although, some people and I agree that this guitar can be used for many styles).

I personally feel that although the saga gitanes are factory made, they aren't too shabby for the price, and with some modifications (mainly the bridge), they can sound quite good. Although, I might add that I've never played any higher end luthier made guitars.

Lastly, I do agree that a nice instrument can motivate someone to play more, but my overall opinion is that its about 80 percent player, 20 percent instrument. A fantastic player can sound good on a decent instrument as well.

Have a good one

PS What saga gitane do you have, and how do you like it?

Josh Hegg

Scot,

One of the things I think might be driving the issue.

When you go to Guitar center you have 3 stages of guitars. low end, mid range, and high end. Then if you want a supper high end guitar you work with a builder. But for the first three stages you can get what you want form Guitar Center. Dropping $1,500 on a guitar at the Center is not hard and you will get a good instrument. Now when it comes to Selmer style guitars you have low and high end. Even if you spend $1,500 you get just an okay guitar. It's not until you get into the $3,000 range that start really benefiting from the extra cash. (As a side note I can see that trend changing but it is not going changing fast. There will be some good mid range GJ guitars coming as the need for them grows.) For some one getting into guitar playing in general spending $1,000 would get them a really nice guitar. For the player getting into Gypsy jazz style $1,000 gets you a starter. But that starter sound louder and way different then the $1,000 guitar they got from Guitar Center. As a new player in the style why would you feel the need to spend more on a guitar that sounds (to your untrained, learning ears) like a gypsy guitar?

Now for the player that has been into the style for a while. Say you have a Saga and you are in the market for an upgraid... you go to Djangofest and play a few DellArte', a Favino, a few Parks. But there happens to be a guy there with a Busato. You play that Busato and then you know what the best is. You get on line to look at a Busato and find that you are going to be spending at least $7,000 to start. All of a sudden the Saga sounds better knowing that you got it for $900 with a case!

I think it comes down to people not knowing why one gypsy guitar costs more then another. The question comes up: Is a Selmer really worth $25,000? If not then why would I spend $7,000 on a Busato or $2,700 on Park or Dupont.

You have years of playing the guitar that have built your ear up to hear the little differences that come with the higher priced instruments. Not to put any one down on this form because we are all learning.. I would say the majority of the players on the forum have less then 10 years into the playing this style.

I agree with you that there has been some loss along the way when it comes to the player's perception of the instrument they choose to play. Most of the time the budget of the player determines that choice. For those that have cash to get what ever they want might not have the ear to back up the cost of the instrument. As this style grows more and more each year the player will change and you will see more players with the higher end guitar. For the time being we are in the stage of low to mid range guitars for the style because as players that is where we are.

Great topic. Thanks much for you thoughtful post!

Cheers,
Josh

pdaigle

The market is very small compared to flattops or archtops.

One thing I noticed is that a lot of people in the market for Selmer style guitars are looking for a second or third guitar just to get 'the sound' when they are playing Gypsy Jazz but Gypsy Jazz is not their main style/interest. Often times, these players own hign-end archtops and/or flattops and are just looking for a secondary guitar. As such, they are not interested in investing 3000$+ and waiting months to get a luthier made instrument.

I myself play exclusively this style and I owned a Michael Dunn which I sold and a Park which i am now selling to get sosmething else (not sure what, yet..) but I can easily understand people not being interested in higher-end GJ guitars: it's an musical interest (among other interests) more than their main style of play.

just the bassplayer

I am over 50 years old as well, and have seen, tried, and owned many very fine guitars and electric basses. My bespoke Hofner bass has spent the past 3 months in Scot MacDonald's repair shop awaiting a neck re-set!
I want to posit a slightly different idea: The production quality of the Chinese/Saga/Gitane guitar makers has changed the equation. Their quality to price ratio is something new in the world, making a fairly inexpensive JJ model a rather good guitar. My guess is that if this same guitar at the same quality was produced in the US it would cost nearly twice as much.

The bar has been raised on the low end and the quality has risen.

Michael Hayes

Bob Holo

Well, a few things:

1.) You're underestimating Sagas. The new ones are a LOT better than the first ones (exception being the early satin finish D500's which were great) I love my Park - it is indeed another level - I agree with you. But... I've played half a dozen Gitane JJ & they were all well past the "good enough" mark (good enough to me, means that they allow you to have a good time jamming so that you're focusing on the music and not on wishing your guitar was better)

2.) Price and quality are loosely corrolated unless you're talking about a luthier built instrument in the $3,000+ range where the luthier cuts no corners and refuses to put their name on something that doesn't bark. I have 7 guitars - 3 of them Gypsy. My Park is jaw dropping... it also cost me over $4k. My Dell Arte is pretty darned good, It cost me $2,600. My Gitane D250M is really darned good and it cost me $700.

3.) Availability of GJ guitars is spotty and no two guitars are alike. Before I bought my OM, I played well over 100 guitars over a 6 month period. By comparison, I think the inventory of GJ guitars for sale in Portland/Seattle - (two multi-million population metropolitan areas that are both hotbeds of GJ in the USA) ... I'd be surprised if there are a dozen GJ guitars in all stores combined and I'll bet 10 of them are Gitane... Which means if you're going to step up to a boutique GJ rig, you either have to know Michael or Josh or Joe (Vinikow) and go over to their houses to try 'em out... or you have to buy sight unseen from Jacques Mazzoleni because you're taking a big chance buying a $$$$ guitar off of Ebay... Or... the final option (the one I chose) is to place your faith in a luthier and put some money up front and get on their waiting list. I placed my faith in Shelley and she exceeded my expectations... but even as fantastic as she is - and as polite - and as professional - and as great to deal with... I must admit that it's tough to wait several months.

scot

I have a D250M. I also have a 1984 Favino and a 1993 Dupont, plus a 1955 Gibson J-185 (purchased long ago for $745 and a big grin). That and a few miscellaneous family instruments are all that's left of my one-time collection of 15+ guitars. I've had my two French guitars since 1993 and have put more than a few hours in playing them, and used them to record one CD with. I have also played a lot of other guitars. I don't think I am underestimating anything, and I am not at all certain that the bar has been raised as much as has been suggested. There were Yamaha and Yairi guitars made back in the 70s and 80s that were great sounding and very light instruments at a bargain price. You can probably still get them at a bargain price - I don't know.

I'm a fair craftsman and I put a lot of work into trying to make that Saga sound like I want it to sound. I have ultimately found that I can't get the sound to change much - it still sounds snippy and dull and has no bass - it has no growl. I had a much better opinion of the thing when I first got it, but that has changed over time. For me the standard is admittedly high - I played my Dupont next to Francis Moerman's Selmer over a period of a week and my guitar sounds almost exactly like that Selmer. And for you guys in the NW, if you've ever heard the 14-fret d-hole Favino that (I think) Doug McKenna currently owns then you'll know what my Favino sounds like - except mine is maybe a wee bit tighter. My guitars, especially the Favino, are now worth right much money, and if I'd found a guitar that had a better sound, I'd sell either or both of them to get it. That hasn't happened yet.

I don't have any opinion or other criteria about what kinds of guitars that people buy, that's not my business, and it's certainly not my place to approve or disapprove. That's not what my original post was really about anyway. What I am most interested in is whether or not there has been some change in the larger guitar world - and our little microcosm of it - where people are not as interested in quality guitars as they always have been in my piece of that larger world. I just went on in my usual long-winded way for too long.

My opinion basically is that a fine guitar is it's own reward, and if I am a modest player (which I am), well, you don't have to be Michael Schumacher to appreciate driving a Ferrari, either!

It might be interesting if someone here could generate a poll or/and set up a thread to find out what various parts of the music world people on the forum came from and still inhabit away from here...

Anyway, I appreciate all the thoughtful answers. Nearly everyone had ideas that I had not considered.

Regards
Scot

Bob Holo

Well - OK... now I think I get where you're coming from...

So - what you're asking is: "Why do people not share my love of high-end craft Gypsy Jazz guitars and all the benefits they offer."

Gypsy Jazz is a small re-emerging market segment - and growing rapidly. It's really hot right now and attracting lots of new players. Those new players take their enthusiasm to the Internet (which didn't exist when Yamaha was making good cheap Dreadnoughts in the '70s.) and they're looking for knowledge ... and they wind up here because of the dozen or so GJ forums, this is one of the few that is active enough to be interesting on a daily basis. In larger market segments such as C&W & Bluegrass, there are enough active forums to where they become self selecting. As for GJ & Djangobooks - we're a small but diverse family. Members of this group include headliners of major festivals and guys who are desperately trying to memorize enough chords to be able to go to the local jam and not feel embarrassed.

By the way - I'm looking forward to jamming with you more this year - last year we only got in one jam together - in front of that little coffee shop on the water side of main street Saturday afternoon.