How to pick this..

BluesBop Harry

Yes...Jimmy Rosenberg looks a bit different.
I think it's mostly that he extends the free fingers outwards instead of curling them inwards. I'm sure he uses the traditional grip and technique anyway.
Other very technically proficient players who use GP are Stochelo Rosenberg, Bireli Lagrene, Angelo Debarre and Andreas Öberg, just to name a few. Each may look a bit different than the others but they all use roughly the same picking system when playing in the traditional style.
And of course Django Reinhardt used it as well!!

There is a "correct" way to use a pick in this style, if you buy the Gypsy Picking book you'll find out all about it...but there is some, rather small, variation among each individual player, but still the overall technique is the same.
There's also a downloadabe pay lesson in this site that explains the basics of it.
It is a technique designed for acoustic guitar playing, and so it aims for the best combination of volume, good tone, speed and articulation with minimal effort.
Electric guitar picking techniques usually don't work as well, if at all, when used on an acoustic instrument.
Developing this technique takes a long time and your experience with other picking styles will initially work against you, but it definitely gives a very distinct articulation, much improved tone and volume with very little muscle tension, on an acoustic guitar, so for most people who have a serious desire to learn this style properly it is the way to go.
I wouldn't attempt to try to learn GP without the book or a good teacher who has mastered it already, it takes enough time and effort as it is with a clear path to follow.

Downstrokes sound different with GP because they are played as rest strokes and upstrokes aren't.

I hope this answers your questions, but again I think most of your doubts will be cleared when you get the book, and if you still have questions after that you can ask Michael here, which is one of the coolest features all the Djangobooks have, being able to ask the author directly.

Good luck!!!

cantzon

The term "rest stroke" initially threw me off because it is not used in the same way as the classical term. I was familiar a long time ago with the Frank Gambale economy picking thing. So in the context of ascending runs using a DUDD pattern it makes perfect sense. I've always done a bit of that and especially have done consecutive downs with arpeggios. The main difference is that I reverse the entire pattern when descending. I realize that deviates from the gypsy picking paradigm. Oh well...

One thing I'd like to add: Someone on this site advised a beginner not to worry about learning theory. As a teacher this advice really bothers me. very guitarist should be familiar with basic theory and should study as much as possible. I realize that it is possible to play without theory but players lacking knowledge of theory will have a strong tendency to replicate lines by guys who do know theory or who at least have a solid intuitive understanding of harmonic structure. If music is to grow and evolve it is important that players not just replicate but create new lines.

A lot of the advice on this forum seems geared to bringing new players into this one admittedly cool facet of guitar playing at the cost of locking new players into very limited systems that ultimately will hurt their overall playing. A lot of these techniques are very cool but players should know that there are other methods that are more flexible.

I've come to the conclusion after some thought that the gypsy picking is indeed very cool but I worry about beginners who are neglecting theory, alternate picking, and other rudimentary techniques.

A lot of you guys here clearly specialize in Gypsy Jazz guitar and play only that style. Many of us on this forum play other styles but check out many different forums in many different styles in order to broaden our palette and to appreciate different styles of music.

I'm not picking on this forum. If I go to the bluegrass forum and see people telling beginners to only learn to play in the key of G and to disregard theory it bugs me too.

Now I'm sure someone will be pissed at this post but I mean no disrespect to Gypsy Jazz or to its many fine players. I just think people need to be slightly more circumspect about giving out advice.

A final point- Everyone seems to think I always disagree with Elliot....Well, I too met Frank Gambale at a clinic and he was indeed a jerk. I'm not sure why but he was extremely condescending, arrogant, and just plain not nice. At the time I was a teenager and it was very disappointing.

Anyway...
Bye.

dennis

i'm the one who most likely advised beginners to avoid theory in the beginning (at least too much of it)... i've been teaching for many years with great success and i also have a degree in music theory... but really the most important thing is training the ears as much as possible... the most important thing when it comes to improvisation is to be able hear in your head what you're about to play.... otherwise there's no other point...

you mention you worry about beginners who don't learn theory and alternate picking... the main problem with that is that you're thinking other people look at music the same way you do ie that you should be able to do everything...

the fact is that everyone is different... and even my rule about ignoring theory in the beginning is "wrong" to someone whose goal in life is just to learn theory...

which is why when I teach, i make it clear that everything i teach is based on the idea of being able to perform and establish good foundations for musicianship.. of course, sometimes students tell me their goal is to get into a music school... in which case, i also teach them how to read properly, how to analyze chord progressions and so on so forth...

but when someone comes to me to learn gypsy jazz, i teach them well... Gypsy jazz...

i laugh when i see those ads from teachers who say they can teach every style and every technique... if they could really do that, they wouldn't have time to teach, they'd be in hot demand as session players....

anyway, i'm not saying theory is a bad thing, it comes in quite handy for communication with other musicians... and i think that for anyone who wants to really advance, it can be a good thing to study.. but not before learning the proper foundations of music (ie ear training and performance)... it's very similar to the suzuki method...

anyway here's a video of some of my students who just started really improvising for the first time in their lives... proof enough that my method works...



they don't know anything about theory or very little of it

here's another video of some of my more advanced students... same thing, very little theory, yet they're able to apply tritone subs, alterated harmonies, etc...:

djadam

I'm of the camp which thinks that theory, while useful, can be overrated. In fact I've occasionally joked that I can play a little despite having earned a degree in theory and composition!

If you look throughout the history of great guitarists, you'll see a mixed bag - some are geniuses in theory and others play just as stunningly with little or no theory... what they have in common I think is having well developed ears. Nothing intellectual could ever compare to the intelligence of the ears - they know what you like.

Don't get me wrong - music theory can be helpful for sure. I just think it pales in importance compared to developing a good ear and learning to quiet the mind enough to be present in the moment and just play.

jmcgann

Theory can really help you develop your ear, because it's just a way of organizing sounds in a repeatable manner. It doesn't replace imagination, but as far as the craft aspect of improvisation goes, it is a good organizational tool to develop language that works.

Without ears, there is nothing, though.

HCPhilly

Cantzon wrote;

"A lot of you guys here clearly specialize in Gypsy Jazz guitar and play only that style. Many of us on this forum play other styles but check out many different forums in many different styles in order to broaden our palette and to appreciate different styles of music".

Duh, yeah. It's a Gypsy Jazz Guitar forum.
I know that a lot of the players here play many different styles,
as I do. There are limitations and advantages as far as tone and speed,
in respect to different styles of picking, etc.
I've spent quite a bit of time studying jazz and classical guitar in a lot of settings. I've checked out Gambale's picking material years ago,
and it's OK for certain things. Players using his method, and indeed most traditional jazz guitar players are probably for the most part not primarily interested in getting great tone and volume out of an acoustic guitar.
It really depends on what you are going for, because not all roads lead to the same place. If I were you I really wouldn't concern myself
about worrying about what you perceive as limitations for beginners etc.
With all due respect it's very clear to most of us in this forum that you really don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Gypsy Jazz.
I suggest that you take some time off from posting to really learn about this music, and then come back after 6 months to see if you have broadened your horizons. I can tell you that I've played guitar for a living for over 30 years, and I have truly rediscovered the instrument thru Django and his inspired musical heirs. If and When you get the chance to really hear this music, up close and personal, and to hang with some of the top players in GJ,
[as many of us here have], then you might learn something, [although I think your mind is to full to let any new ideas in, which is a shame].
[Perhaps, like George on Seinfeld, you should consider finding a new hobby ]
Cheers,
Barry Warhoftig

badjazz

cantzon wrote:

If I go to the bluegrass forum and see people telling beginners to only learn to play in the key of G and to disregard theory it bugs me too.

I go to bluegrass jams frequently (waiting hours for a western swing song to creep in), and many of those guys know almost no theory. When they put a capo on the guitar, they still call a G shape a G, even if it is really an A, for example. But those guys just want to play bluegrass, and they absolutely can--and much better than me or some others who sit in and know more theoretical stuff. Knowing some theory is great, especially to help get around when playing unfamiliar music, but when people are playing music where they are totally at home, even the theoretical guys rarely think of the theory behind it. They are too busy listening and playing.

As for the limitations of GP, what technique doesn't have limitations? That doesn't mean you should abandon that style's defining characteristics because something else is easier. Then you are not even playing the style of music that you were attempting in the first place.

Last, I think I need to take lessons from Dennis, those students are pretty impressive!

rob.cuellari

hey dennis, i'm still very new to taking this style seriously (about 7 months now, but taking lessons weekly with stephane wrembel)

i went to your workshop in march, was one of the guys who couldn't really follow due to lack of knowledge of the fretboard.

just wondering how long those students in the vids have been playing for in both of the videos.

-rob