Differences in back and sides woods????

Bob Holo · August 2007

True statement djadam - it's familiarity with the wood - and ability to get a good supply of the wood - and knowing that the wood works well with a particular design. If someone wants a Ziricote back... sure... I can go to a high quality supplier and get a premium grade Ziricote back - measure its density and stiffness etc. and do a good job of intgegrating it based on that... but that winds up being a lot of (unneccessary) variables. Most luthiers have several options of standard and premium tonewood and many times it's because they've got a stack of each because when you come across a really stellar log or billet etc. you just suck it up and buy the whole dam**d thing because you know you might not see a stack of wood that good of that species in a long time. So, many times they've watched it age over several years - they may even be familiar with individual pieces of wood or at least individual billets (which yield a couple of sets each) So when you describe what you want - they're already thinking of which billet your set will come from because wood is like wine - half the fun is going down into the cellar and looking at the stuff - tapping it - tasting it - getting a feel for it. I have a couple billets of bearclaw sitka that I can't wait to try - I've been bringing it down from 20% moisture content slowly for a couple of years now. It was 15 years old to start with but air dried outdoors. By the time I'm ready to build with it... I'll know it like I know my favorite shirt.

At any rate - really good observation. I wish that was a commonly known bit of information.

djadam · August 2007

BluesBop Harry wrote:

Also what are "hard" and "soft" maples?

My impression is that big leaf western maple would be an example of a softer maple while a typical birdseye maple is a relatively hard maple.

Bob, thanks for your post - I always enjoy listening to luthiers discuss wood. Your passion is infectious, although...

Bob Holo wrote:

...going down into the cellar and looking at the stuff - tapping it - tasting it - getting a feel for it.

I'm not sure if you're a luthier or really a giant termite with exquisite tastes. :shock:

Korat · August 2007

mmaslan wrote:

This guy seems to experiment more than most with laminates:

http://www.gitaarbouw.nl/

Anybody played his guitars?

I did. His guitars sound different, especially in the lower regions. More of an undertone of classical guitars.

Bohemian · September 2007

Random thoughts

The difference between SONO ( plantation EI) and EI is similar to the difference between Brazilwood and Pernambuco.. same tree, smae species, different quality.

Bolivain rosewood was mentioned... be it known.. Bolivian rosewood is not a rosewood (not a dalbergia) and goes by many other names including
Pao Ferro and Morado. I have a very old fine stash of it...

I agree most luthiers are absolute straight shooters.. howvwer there was the Brazilan rosewood /CAVIUNA scam from Spain...
complex history but many Spanish builders were passing off a wood that wasn't Brazilain as Brazilian.. and then it gets more complicated
..very complicated for more info than you wnat go the Acoustic Guitar Magazines discussuion group them to the Classical corner and do a search for CAVIUNA.....

I have some very fine very old East Indian Rosewood abnd access to more...I prefer it and have always preferred it over Brazilian...
especially currently... ....
There are a few builders that use EI exclusively including the famous classical maker Bouchet...I agree with the idea of the luthier does best what he knows best and that extends to his choice of wood (in most cases)

AS to laminate guitars.... it is my opinion given quality lamiantes and a quality core it makes little difference ... spend you money on the top......
and specifically with a Sel/Mac or gypsy Jazz guitar , a quality bridge

disclosure.. In a former life I hustled timbers to instrument builders..

Bob Holo · September 2007

A wood slinger! (or former one at any rate...) Nice to have you on the board.

Ya... I think Pau Ferro must be Spanish for "Wood with many names." but still, not a Dalbergia. I do love it though - for GJ guitars it works great - it can go thin - and gives the back a big dry tap with some bass. Another great wood for GJ guitars (tops) is Douglas Fir... though my wife the plant-nerd informed me a couple months back that it isn't really a fir... it was just named that by a well meaning European explorer named Douglas who brought it back to Europe where it is also evidently misnamed as Oregon Pine - so when you read about the old Mirecourt builders making Pine guitars... it might mean Doug Fir. I think my Busato is Doug Fir - looks & smells like it at any rate. What do you think?

By the way - to the true spirit of this thread - Busato built laminated guitars with arched backs - fascinating guitars - I've only played / seen three of them but they were all wonderful old guitars with big warm voices.

BluesBop Harry · September 2007

Thanks to all!

I understand that the top and and design of a guitar is the decisive factor on the final sound, but if even if they're small differences...
How might the maple neck, as opposed to walnut neck, on a laminated maple guitar affect the sound?
What about a mahogany neck on a laminated mahogany guitar?

What's "Santos" rosewood?

By the way I think Pau Ferro is Portuguese, not Spanish and means something like "iron wood".

gitpicker · September 2007

Bob, I noticed in JP Favino's current catalog, he says the top wood for his gypsy guitars French Pine. Do you think it could it be Douglas Fir or really Pine? You've seen Ted's D-hole Favino right? Did the top appear to be D-fir to you? I'm just curious. I love JPs guitars no matter what they're made of. I just never saw French Pine being advertised as a top wood before.

Thanks,

Doug

Bob Holo · September 2007

Necks...
That's a tough question - a lot depends on the construction of the neck, the thickness, the method of stiffening (aluminum or steel strut, truss rod, hardwood or carbon rod... etc...) and the fingerboard material and thickness... and the method of attachment. I like to have necks as light as possible and with as little damping as possible - just my preference. You want a neck to be stable - and you want it to not "steal" vibration from the body because guitars are inefficient to begin with - only converting a few percent of the energy into sound. Little sources of sympathetic vibration / comb filtering etc. can have a big impact on volume. Some people solve that problem with big thick necks of dense material (hard maples...) and big thick fingerboards of well dampened dense wood like ebony. Others solve the problem by using light rigid less dampened materials and attempt to bring the stiffness to weight ratio up to the point where the resonance of the neck is not an issue. This is the method I prefer (Honduran Mahogany, Spanish Cedar, Black Walnut... with aluminum or carbon or rosewood stiffening and rosewood fingerboards) Those old European guitars weighted nothing - part of it was the neck construction. I'm from that school of thought. As for the effect on sound of either of these neck designs on any given guitar? That's almost a religious issue - you'll find proponents on both sides and they start to toss around descriptive words that'd make a wine enthusiast blush. Probably the best guidance is: "If a particular neck style works on a design you like - stick with it on that design" So... Favinos in Maple & Selmers/Busatos in Walnut/Mahogany and classical in Spanish Cedar... those are all good bets.

French Pine...
Next time I see Ted I'll take a look at his new guitar - I think it has one of these "French Pine" tops. If I can see one up close I'll know. It's hard to say if it's Doug Fir or a Doug Fir variant just by name because Doug Fir is maybe the most mis-classified wood ever. It's been known as a pine, a spruce, a tsuga, a sequoia... Finally some botanist (French, I think - ironically) said: "Gee folks, we don't know what it is - but it's most like a Tsuga so we're going to create a classification for it as a "false Tsuga" or ..... "Pseudotsuga" which is it's real name (though that was more than a century ago and people still pretty much call it what they used to call it - so the official name might be moot.) Quite a few woods were brought from North America to Europe at that time, including Doug Fir & various varieties of Spruce. When the trees adapt to thier new surroundings the wood can change a bit in its milled appearance. Spruces can be hard to tell apart (leading to scams) but the difference between Doug Fir & Spruce is pretty easy - (the grain lines of Doug Fir are strong & dark & glassy when planed, and it has little to no apparent medulary rays even if cut perfectly on quarter) and Doug Fir has a "unique" scent. (stinks like he**) If you've ever refinished Doug Fir floors and thought you were smelling decades of musty smelling crud... nah... that's just the Doug Fir.

Great tonewood though - especially for GJ guitars that need to be snappy & powerful. One of the best Dreadnoughts I've ever played was made by a guy here in Portland using a Doug Fir top... prewar Martin bracing also of DF... YUM... huge deep resonant ... with such an even tone from top to bottom and just ridiculously responsive - yet tons of headroom - a real mind blower. He made it from the step of a friend's house. Evidently he'd walked on that step for years and had always thought it'd make a great top. So, when his friend remodeled the house he said: "I want that step" Sure enough... it was. That friend is Mark C., who runs the tonewood division of Gilmer Wood in Portland - he has a great eye for wood.

Hope this note makes sense - I've been writing it in between coats... drying... fumes from Shellac aren't too bad... especially since I use Everclear to make it... one shot for the guitar - one for me

... gotta go.

-Bob