playing, hearing, django story

a

i posted this on the other forum, but am interested interested in what you guys have to say:

this whole thing of playing what you hear...
you have to hear music first before you can want to play it. then after you hear it, it has to be spatially orientated (like on an image of guitar neck) in your mind, so that your fingers know where to go, right? or is it the other way around? if it's visualized before it's heard, is that still music? it's kind of like being able to call a shot in billiards before you hit the cue...

but is playing what you hear in your head even necessary? Furthermore, what's the point of playing it if you can already hear it in your head? what if you don't hear anything...do you just not play? maybe just playing around on the guitar, making noise, can create something to which the player can respond.

there's that quote where django said "i don't know music, but music knows me" (or something to that effect). i think that a big part of what made music easy for django was being awash in a culture where live music thrived and was one of the main, if not one of the only, forms of entertainment. maybe, like tinitus, this constant stream of music in the culture precipitated a constant stream of music in django's head??

i began to imitate django and play django inspired music about three years ago. i have been playing guitar since i was twelve and had played and studied some be-bop, noise stuff, rock, and pop music.

i rarely hear melodies or music cold or without being stimulated by some kind of sound. and then, i rarely ever hear a fully formed phrase. most of the time, i think about things in terms of harmonies/colors and visual shapes on the guitar neck.

i'm trying to learn how to play what i hear. i can totally visualize things like the first three notes of "all of me," the riff from "satisfaction" or the opening of "improvisation." these are kind of like sentences i guess. is it even possible to hear music without reference to some previously heard music?

does anyone have a method for how to enhance this skill?

i heard a story from a guy who knew a guy who went to see django play in chicago (i think). after the show, this guy and his friends went backstage to meet django. they found him hanging out by himself and invited him out. they took him to a bowling alley. apparently, when they asked him if he wanted to jam, he wouldn't play at the bowling alley because it was too loud. they asked him "what do you think of american guitarists?"

"no technique." is what he said.

then they asked him.."django, how did you get so good?"

"play." was his response.

Elliot

When Django said "music knows me" he was making a positional statement of someone fully at home in the right hemisphere of his brain, not an observation of the available music in his environment or whatever you were saying.

It isn't necessary to hear the music in your head if you have the fingering memorized, but it helps - and besides, isn't that easier to do anyway? I have a hard time getting some of the songs I work on out of my head. I've had dreams of melodies I've never heard before as well, melodies that were much more beautiful that I've been able to come up with consciously, in fact.

This is a left brain world, with all the obsessive/compulsive order freaks that dominate every part of society, and as a right hemisphere dominant individual I struggle to make sense out of it every day as I thread around the neurotics that surround me. I'm sure Django did as well, although as someone with no education he kept it pretty much to himself .

Sorry, not in a good mood today....

Ken Bloom

To me, the instrument is a tool for expression. I don't look to the instrument itself to generate anything, any more than I expect one of my chisels to tell me how to shape a piece of wood.
I can always remember being fascinated by melodies and singing them at the top of my lungs (much to the annoyance of everyone around me). When I got old enough and experienced enough to play an instrument, I began trying to play what I was singing. I was fortunate that my clarinet and sax teacher was jazz oriented and continued to get me to work on hearing and playing.
When I got into studying Indian Classical music in the early 60's, I found out that their approach was the same. No matter what instrument you were interested in playing, they sent you immediatley into a vocal class. The explanation was simple. If you can sing it, you can play it. Again, the emphasis was not on the instrument, but on the music. You learn the music and then encumber yourself how to operate the gizmo to get the music to come out.
The most valuable exercise I was ever given was to first sing a series of four notes and then play them. Start very simply. Restrict yourself to a diatonic scale and begin to foster a real bonding between hearing and sound. Do not look at the instrument. Eyes are a distraction. Depend on first your ears and second your fingers. As Musashi says "Practice often!"

blindjimmy

i can't completely agree with the assesment of someone who was at home in the right side of his brain. c'mon, these people at that time had no use for science, psych, whatever, i dont even think he was making that statement intuitively, thinking that his mind was attuned to music. this is a suprestitious culture, and i always read that statement as meaning that the muse of art and music came to him, and spoke to him, through him., opened up her legs for him. where he lived in the moment, we sit around with our feeble analyzations and petty attempts to show off how much we know. frank was so on the money when he said shut up and play your guitar

HCPhilly

It's a really good question. the best answer that I have is that "the more you can hear it in your before you play it the better."
The concept, [called audiation], is very useful. I leaned to do it in college to help to memorize and learn new pieces by going thru the printed score away from the guitar, [when taking a train, for instance].
Your question was about hearing things in relation to the shapes on the neck, and also hearing them before you play them in improvising.
Working on the different aspects of audiation will make you a better
musician. You can use it to memorize pieces and solos, and it will help your ability to react to music as it happens when you are improvising live.
Learning solos BTW, as I've said many times is a great way to learn this music. It works for many reasons, [and it's really part of a tradition].
Learning solos, especially if you transcribe them yourself], will help you to organize your ideas. All of this works together to improve your musicianship, [a lot of this is probably more right brain centered].
Case in point, I couldn't find an accurate transcription of "La Gitane,"
[Don King's was the closest that I could find], I transcribed it myself, using Tchan Chou's and Angelo's recordings. After it was done, I worked it out on the guitar to figure out fingering and picking, but I also studied the score without the guitar to help memorize it.
I do think that it's a right brain skill, mainly, spatial visualization, synthesizing over time and space, etc. Needless to say, Django was a master
at "seeing" the neck, connecting the dots, if you will. Hope that that helps you.

bbwood_98

A,
As always, you are very provocative! a great thing- as you know I try hard to hear before I play . . . and stay as far from many typical cliches as I can (though I often fail!). That being said, I think that these are skills that will help but really learning to hear requires learning to sing- talk to my wife; shes going through the same stuff, as am I. Learning to improvise freely requires hearing some ideas, and being able to play anything you like, and thus (my area of failure!) working a thing or 100 out ahead of time with the caviat that you can modify. Start by learning to sing basic triads, then basic scales from the jazz vocabulary, in all twelve keys and in any inversion- you'll be amazed at what you hear then when you play. The tone of the voice is not at issue, just accuracy with pitch. Then focus on singing and playing back what you sang over a tune (a few bars at a time at first). Note that this may not be the only path- and you have a very intense schedule for practice anyway!
Cheers,
B.

a

thanks bb. how's the festival? when are you getting back from the west coast? let's jam.

Wirralgitane

good topic!

As i was reading the comments i came across two ideas.

1. Could you consider composition, hearing what's in your head before being played? As in the classical composers who can right scores multibly before hearing what they write, but then they understand music theory/notation so whatever is written will work because harmonically it fits together? i understand thats the opposite to Django not just down to composers arn't players (well some) but i'm just trying to see if its possible to hear something and have it come in come out your head onto paper and into music. hopefully you catch my drift.

2. But where as Django has no musical knowledge in theory, he has freedom of expression on his instrument because he can talk onit. Like, he knows how to say what he wants, he is a virtuoso in his field in communication is the way i see it. And alot of the chord changes are repetative in this genre i think, so he can't get lost because he can find his way through the dark lets say. He plays on the same streets so knows where he is. I'm not really 'school' educated but thats my take on this. I think its crucial if you want to 'make music' that you hear it, sing it, can improvise by singing making up a melody/riff/tune then lastly play it. I am talking players who have absorbed the instrument fully so they can play what they want.

Another thing has come, if you know of no scales or chords but can play what you hear you are limitless in playing what you want?
Django knew what sound he wanted, like a soft chord, or a full chord or a sad chord because he 'played' so much. And could play within!?
If you have been tought theory are you then restricted because you have to think first? or is this a good foundation if your learning to play music from someone who has had no background init?
DJANGO didn't need to. He knew how it was gonna sound before it came out becaues it was natural like all the greats. I'm not saying this is right just this has just caught me thinking...

a

i think that the options have to at least be cognized or you don't have any freedom. maybe it's more important to learn as many phrases as possible than to spend all your time learning the most difficult ones..
then you've got a vocab. otherwise, you end up like stochelo, who plays the same thing over and over again with little change. don't get me wrong- his technique has been able to keep my attention for a couple of years, but he's no django when it comes to finding new meanings in what he's playing. a great artist has got to have the ideas and the chops.

then there are those protophrases...stuff like finding triads on the neck and exploring the enharmonic aspects of the guitar. is that even worth learning out of context (i.e. without any relation to phrases)?

what's the etymology of all these phrases? i know coltrane used a book, but django couldn't read.

HCPhilly

From reading these posts it looks like there are some misconceptions about improvisation. As far as Coltrane "using a book of phrases,"
that needs clarification. Coltrane certainly could read music, and studied theory, [he studied with the Late Dennis Sandole in Philly].
However, as far as phrases, 'trane, like most players learned the idiomatic phrases of the players that came before him, and he probably did it by ear. The process is basically 1) learn the stock phrases, analyze them to see what makes them tick, 2) modify them to build your own vocab.
It is a language, [jazz, that is]. All language requires learning basic vocab. Most player mix worked out ideas with on the spot ideas.
There really is a rote learning aspect to playing any style of jazz,
including GJ. I'm sure that some players will disagree, but I base this on a lot of years of studying & playing, and also in observing players performing. BTW, as many of you may know, many Gypsy players don't know any theory, they learn and play by rote, mostly. As far as Django's improvisation skills, he could hear changes amazingly well, and he had great ability to navigate changes, [there are stories about this in the biographies]. BTW, since most of us don't have that, we should transcribe and memorize and take apart
solos, it works, [it's not easy, but it really works.] You will learn how to "connect the dots," so to speak.
Django certainly used some stock swing and blues phrases, and also some folk/Gypsy phrases and scales. I personally believe that he spent a lot of time working out ideas, as most great players do. Some of his solos are so logical, brilliant and symmetrical that it's hard to believe that he
made it up on the fly. "I'll See you in my Dreams," for instance,
is such a tour de force, it's part melodic paraphrase and part improv.
It ends up being a new piece based on the melody and changes of the source material.
The closer that you look at the piece the more you realize Django's genius. Lastly, it's possible to figure out how chords and scales work together without really knowing any theory, [look at Wes Montgomery].
Also, remember what Charlie Parker said, "learn all your theory, and then forget it, and just play,"
or something like that!

Ken Bloom

Amen!