Up-down vs. down-up for la pompe?

pkdjango

Hi,

In the Gypsy Rhythm book, the picking pattern for the la pompe is notated as a short upstroke (the "grace" note) followed by downstroke (the main beat). However, in this Denis Chang's lesson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVlhEczRB2M

it seems as though he's playing a downstroke for the "grace" note and then an upstroke for the main beat.

I then watched Django's on youtube j'attendrai video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq4PWR46DF4

carefully to see if I can see the pattern that Joseph Reinhardt (Django's brother and accompanist) played. It seems as though he was playing the pattern that Denis Chang was playing. (not 100% sure) When I watched Nous'che from the Rosenberg Trio play the rhythm, it might have been the pattern from Horowitz's book Gypsy Rhythm (but again, I couldn't tell for sure).

For me, it was easier to keep the grace note very short using the pattern in Denis' video than that from the book. Is this just a different style or is one style more correct than the other?

GregHB

I'm no authority here, but I think you might be mistaken. I believe Denis does use the upstroke in his video...the same technique that Michael suggests using. Sometimes, it is difficult to see it clearly because of what Denis calls the 'trampoline effect'...where his hand returns to the raised position very quickly following the first beat after the grace note in order to prepare to play beat two. Anyways, I think that's what is happening.

Jack

Yes, both examples are with an upstroke for the 'grace note'. There is another style that uses an upstroke on the main beats, but it's more of an Eastern European thing used for some specific pieces, and shouldn't be confused with 'la pompe', where the main beats are always downstrokes.

Watch the video more closely, and I think you'll get it. The first beat is: grace note up and main beat down. Then the right hand 'bounces back'-without hitting the strings-to hit beat two on a downstroke.

hope that helps,
Jack.

Joli Gadjo

The upstroke almost doesn't exists.
When I started to work on La pompe I found easier just not to consider this short upstroke, because all four beats are downstrokes afterall. The upstroke is just an effect that you can do, but don't have to. It's true that once started it's addictive ! But in one of these youtube videos from Dennis, remember that on the 1st and 3rd beat it should be almost impossible to discern up and downstrokes. It's so close, it almost sound like only one stroke. The upstroke should almost feel as if your strings were burning, so you have to be quick !

BluesBop Harry

Well...
There's also another style of playing la Pompe without upstrokes, Denis talks about it in his video, it involves a sort of rake (downward) for the first beat.
It widely used around Paris if I'm not mistaken, and I also believe Nous'che uses it on the new Rosenberg trio album.

However I believe Django's accompanist used the upstroke style, which is more common.

pkdjango

Thanks for the answers, Greg and the rest of you guys!

I think I was mistaken. I checked out Denis' video clip and it does look like he's doing an upstroke first followed by a downstroke. Yes, the trampoline effect did make it look like an upstroke at the end, but I don't think he hit the strings at that point.

GregHB wrote:

I'm no authority here, but I think you might be mistaken. I believe Denis does use the upstroke in his video...the same technique that Michael suggests using. Sometimes, it is difficult to see it clearly because of what Denis calls the 'trampoline effect'...where his hand returns to the raised position very quickly following the first beat after the grace note in order to prepare to play beat two. Anyways, I think that's what is happening.

BluesBop Harry

Yes...on the clip you posted of Denis he's explaining the upstroke style, but there's also another style without the upstroke. Denis explains that one too on another part of his video which I strongly recomend you get.

You can see very clearly the "downstroke" style on this clip starting around 0:55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4MdqWU6q20
He describes the first beat as a "crushing" of the strings.

So one is up/down---down and the other is down---down.
For the upstroke, as Joli Gadjo pointed out, you have to be very quick and subtle.

Both styles are used in this music depending on the song, tempo and individual taste of the player.

BluesBop Harry

... the second and fourth beats are always downstrokes.

pkdjango

Right. I actually did see this clip as well. I'm definitely getting the video. Thanks for the tips!

BluesBop Harry wrote:

Yes...on the clip you posted of Denis he's explaining the upstroke style, but there's also another style without the upstroke. Denis explains that one too on another part of his video which I strongly recomend you get.

You can see very clearly the "downstroke" style on this clip starting around 0:55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4MdqWU6q20
He describes the first beat as a "crushing" of the strings.

So one is up/down---down and the other is down---down.
For the upstroke, as Joli Gadjo pointed out, you have to be very quick and subtle.

Both styles are used in this music depending on the song, tempo and individual taste of the player.