What am I doing here?!?!

dulcimist

This is not an existential question.

I've been playing around with this progression of arpeggios (on hammered dulcimer). I'm pretty sure it's in the ii-V-I realm,but I'm fairly new to GJ. Can anyone help me understand what I'm playing here:

Descending // ascending arpeggios:
A-F-D // B-D-F
G#-F-D // B-D-F
G-E-C // G-C-E
F#-C-A // F#/D

E-C-A // F#-A-C
E-B-G //F-G-B
C-G-E // G#-F-D-B (Descending)
C-E-G // C

Key of C, correct?
This is my best guess of the chords:
Dm6 | G#dim7 | C | D7
D9 | G7/6 | C // G#dim | C

I'm not exactly sure why this progression works, I just know it sounds right. I understand the G#dim is replacing a G7, which makes the first 3 bars a ii-V-I (if I'm correct that the first is Dm6).

Do I have the right chord names?
Is the D9 just a substitution for a Dm (ii)?
Is there another name for the G7/6?

Thanks for helping a non-guitarist!!

djangology

I understand the G#dim is replacing a G7

the tritone of G7 is Db7 and the G#dim is a chord sub of that

the rest of what you describe here confuses me a bit...

normally in the key of C with something like rhythm changes I-vi-ii-V :

C - A7 - Dm7 - G7
C - Am - D7 -G7

or chromatically,

Em7 - Eb7 - Dm7 - Db7 - G7
or
Em9 - EbM9 - Dm9 - Db7 - CM9

And so, in trying to figure out your chords you should come from that point of view prolly.

dulcimist

I am most confused about the first set of four arpeggios. For simplicity, the chord spellings are:

B-D-F-A
B-D-F-G#
G-C-E-G
F#-A-C-F#

You can see how the top notes form a line of descending half-steps. The third and fourth chords seem to clearly be C and D7, which then wants to resolve.

It's really the first two chords I'm trying to understand. What makes it sound nice is that you have identical voicings (B-D-F) with the only difference being the top note stepping down chromatically. I'm just not sure what key I'm in and what those two chords technically are.

I should probably just take a class in music theory!!

Thanks for your help.

djangology

I think what is happening here is just a "voice lead" with a chromatic descending note. In that case I think you can consider the second arpeggio just a tension arpeggio while the rhythm player stays on the C chord...

Thats just my guess. So, instead of playing 4 chords under the 4 arps, you just play 2 probably...

I'm not even in the ballpark of being able to explain the music theory behind this, and this forum is probably the wrong place to ask. Most people here take a "by ear" or "lick" approach, rather than using theory.

Maybe someone else can take a stab at your question.

By the way, this is a common voice lead: Dm6 | Dm/M7 | Dm7 | G7

dulcimist

That's a good point about staying on the same chord.

I've been working my way through Romane's "L'Esprit Manouche" which I think is more theory based. Maybe that's why I'm hung up on understanding the "Why" as well as the "How". I do think the "How" is alot more important (and fun!!).

I happened on this progression while trying to figure something else out. Part of it is that I know I've heard this idea. It sounds very common to my ears. I just want to know how and when I can use it.

Maybe that, too, is a matter of "If it sounds good, it fits" rather than needing to understand the theory.

BluesBop Harry

It could be interpreted in different ways.
It looks to me like:
D-6 - G7 b9 (no root)- C - A-6

The first chord could also be called B-7b5 but I think it's clear it's functioning in the key of C, so I say it's a ii (fourth inv.) that goes to the V, G# dim is a common sub for G7 (it adds the b9), the C is clear enough, and the last chord it's most likely to be a A-6 although it could also be a D7.
Look at this relation:

A-6 = A C E F#
D9 = (D) F# A C E
F# -7 b5 = F# A C E
They are all the same chord just with different names!

About the G# dim:

G#dim =G# B D F
G7= G B D F + the b9: Ab = G#

So if you want a G7b9 you can go up a half step from the root and play a diminished 7th (which by the way can be moved up or down in minor 3rds without altering its structure so Bdim, D dim and F dim also work)

So your progression to me sounds like a II- V- I- VI but it could also work as II- V - I - II7. It would depend on what the bass player is doing.

You can loop it and if you start on the C play it as a turnaround or on the A sections of rhythm changes, among many other instances. There are lots and lots of standards that utilize the I -VI -II- V and variations, in fact it's one of the cornerstones of jazz harmony.

I hope this makes sense and helps you understand the chord progression you stumbled upon.
Try recording a bass line that goes D - G - C - A and playing your chords against it, does that sound like what you hear in your head???

dulcimist

Ahh, that's just the sort of analysis I was looking for. And I think I understand everything you said.

I am using that fourth chord as a D7 b/c I'm also adding a D note with the F#, Kind of like a double stop on violin. So it is actually D-F#-A-C. I still don't quite understand how/why a D7 fits in the key of C. Is II7 a substitution for something else? Wait, maybe it's a substiution for the A-6, is that correct?

Thanks.

BluesBop Harry

I'm glad it helped!
If you're adding the D note then you're correct it is a D7

D7 in the key of C would be a secondary dominant (the V of the V), it just provides a little extra tension and color to spice up the "normal" tonal progressions.
You can find those in many standards, it's very common to follow that D7 with a D- going to G7.

Other common secondary dominants are the VI7 (V of the II), III7 (V of the VI), VII7 (V of the III).

"After you've gone", "All of me", "Take the A train", "Coquette", "Shine", "Rose room", "Donna Lee" are a few tunes with secondary dominants like the II7.

If you're new to this style I suggest getting the new Denis Chang's DVDs "Technique and improvisation" he talks about a lot of chord progression that are common in this music and explains them very well, he'll show you different ways of approaching these with arpeggios.

For learning tunes I like the Robin Nolan's "Gig book" it has like 80 songs with chord charts. The melody is in a weird Tab system but the chords are usually correct.

dulcimist

Now that you use the term secondary dominant, I realize I've learned that and should have realized that's what the D7 was, a V7 of the V7.

It's funny, understanding something from a book, and then discovering it "out in the wild" and not recognizing it.

I am going to get Denis' DVDs. The online samples were enough to convince me. I just have to defray the costs of a very expensive new instrument I'm getting in a few weeks. (after being on a waiting list for it for about 3yrs!!)

Much thanks.