Gypsy picking on archtop? strings ringing! anyone??

Felipe

Hi everyone!!
i'm new at this forum and i'm already really hooked up with all the amazing resources and topics you can find... great job!!

i've been hearing gypsy jazz for a year know. I play mostly bebop, but i'm starting to learn on my own some of the gypsy picking and style.... nobody plays this style here in Chile so i just learn from videos and listening a lot.

so i have this problem that has been bugging me for sometime.

i have an Ibanez GB 10, and my technique is mostly alternate and my right hand slightly damping the lower strings (not resting on them)...preventing from any ringing due to harmonics and sympathy vibration of strings (i have no idea how to write this stuff haha... spanish is my mother tongue)

so now that i'm learning the gypsy picking technique, i find it imposible for the strings not to ring with this technique on my archtop, considering that the right hand is relaxed and not resting on the upper strings.
It is very annoying specially when plugged to an amp. :?

I have watched videos of Andreas and Bireli playing on archtops to see how they manage to overcome this issue... but its really difficult to "get it". Haven't found any Stochelo or Jimmy videos playing with an archtop to get more ideas.

So i was hoping if someone could be kind enough to help me out
michael, andreas, dennis? anyone? hjehe

muchas gracias!
saludos

Felipe.

PS: just bought gypsy picking + gypsy fire + art of accompainment dvd.... pretty serious about this stuff huh! hehe

BluesBop Harry

Hello Felipe,
I can't really answer your question, I guess you have to do some left hand muting.
Some players like Andreas Oberg play with a slightly flatter wrist, maybe that helps...


By the way I'm in Mexico city, so if you ever come here don't hesitate to contact me and we can do some jamming.

MichaelHorowitz

Hi Felipe,

I use the rest stroke technique on my archtop and don't have any problems with sympathetic ringing. I don't use any palm muting...I play the same way that I do on my acoustic.

I've also seen video of Stochelo and Romane playing archtops with standard rest stroke picking:

http://www.djangobooks.com/archives/200 ... tml#000967

You may have an issue with your guitar setup, pickup, or amplifier that is making your rig prone to sympathetic ringing.

Felipe

That is an awesome video! thanks Michael

hmmm i really don't know whats wrong.... as soon as i get my computer back i'll try to record some video and maybe post it to see what might be the problem...

i've been trying to learn form Benson's awesome right hand technique and he has kind of a floating palm too... not resting at all on the strings... and somehow, none of the lower strings resonate. he has a huge left hand too, so there must be a lot of muting going on... but you can hardly tell

and what about wes?! haha... man.. he could play, and so clean!

thanks guys for your kind replies...
i'm looking forward to the mexico gig ... it's kinda far away from here but still hehe, we will definately jam if i have a chance to go!

saludos! y muchas gracias

Felipe

jmcgann

You can try threading a piece of cloth between the strings below the bridge (and above the nut) to get rid of sympathetic ringing.

A popular trick among mandolinists is to use small rubber grommets between the string pairs- not sure how it would work on guitar, you might need three big ones to wedge between each pair of strings, but it should work... Don't buy them from eBay, just got to your local hardware store, they are inexpensive!...

http://cgi.ebay.ca/MANDOLIN-STRING-OVERTONE-GROMMETS_W0QQitemZ380032257164QQihZ025QQcategoryZ10179QQcmdZViewItem

Felipe

Thanks jmcgann!!

I'll check if there is something like that here in my local music stores...
It looks like a really good solution

I've been looking at many Bireli videos, specially this one of Hungaria were you can see his right hand technique form a very good angle...



I can't understand how his strings don't ring with sympathetic vibration. Well, it's Bireli of course... but there has to be an answer...

I thinking it might be my guitar.... that sucks
It's a really good guitar! maybe just not made for this technique

beebo

I've got a US Dell Arte 14 fret oval hole and seem to have the same problem.
I just assumed it's the way my left hand fingers are coming off the strings, but it also seems to be harmonic resonance on neighboring strings that are not being played.
It's something that i am trying to develop a left hand "muting" technique to counteract, i assumed this was just normal. I would be very interested to know if it is a mechanical flaw in my instrument or if this is more common than i thought and everyone just finds their own way to deal with it... :?

buddastrat

I can relate, though I'm more of a rock player and playing with overdrive or loud amps requires a great deal of right hand muting for a clean sound, otherwise a great deal of string noise will be happenin'. Pick hand muting is an advanced skill. On an acoustic instrument, like in the video above, it's just not needed. Those gypsy guitars don't have a lot of sustain, so I would think sympathetic vibrations would not be a problem at all, very minimal. When I play acoustic steel string or nylon it's very easy to let your hand move freely, but when I play rock or through a loud amp, this is where the gypsy technique doesn't really work because of the pick hand position being up in the air "floating", which you need for the bounce but the pick hand needs to be dampening those lower strings.

You could use a hair tie up near the nut or some players use a sock to dampen. But to me that's just not right. I think it should be done with good technique.

spinality

Chuck Wayne used a little elastic "scrunchy" fastened just below the nut. He could slide it above or below the nut for damped/undamped effect, and because this gives only a small damping effect you can still play open strings with it in place -- they just have a bit less ring. He recommended using this gizmo only when performing, so that while practicing you didn't rely on it to dampen string noise. His "scrunchy" was similar to the kind used when wearing a ponytail in the hair, but it had a simple clasp so that it could be opened and closed -- otherwise it wouldn't reach over the headstock. I recall other New York players copying him with this method -- mostly bop players in the 40s-60s.

I expect that most of the people commenting in this thread with ring trouble are primarily having guitar/amp setup issues. This is definitely more of a problem on some instruments than others. Using piezo pickups seems to increase the issue (not surprisingly). I have an old Epiphone Blackstone (1930s archtop) which has a tremendous amount of ring and sustain, and I need to be very aware of open-string noise and acoustic howl, which I mostly deal with through left-hand damping. (I never got around to making my own scrunchies, despite Chuck's advice.) I have other guitars that don't have this issue at all, and the open strings just deaden out nicely.

Another thought is string type and tension. For example if you played flat-wound strings (yeah, I know heresy for Gypsy music, but still) you would probably deaden out the sound significantly. Same with lighter tension or shorter scale length -- less sustain.

An easy fix might simply be an equalizer. Most of the ring is probably notched in narrow feedback ranges, and by experimenting with a filter that has enough bands you might be able to reduce the ring without really affecting the sound.

Hope these comments are useful. -- Trevor

plectroman

Does any one over here think it's possible to have more than one set of guitar chops? I know I grew up playing amped up electrics, and learned to use a flat right hand wrist as something like a damper pedal on a piano, bringing it down on the strings when I wanted to silence ring engendered by overtones, and also by certain mechanical problems created during string bending. This seems like a useful tool that I don't want to throw away...but then when practicing gypsy style. I find that obviously right wrist free of the guitar and downstroking produces superior volume & tone. Is it crazy to think that maybe I can retain what's useful from my electric guitar endeavors, and learn a new set of chops for a different situation{eg gypsy picking?}., sort of like when horn players double? I'm just askin'...

spinality

Sure, lots of players use multiple styles -- probably every studio player does this. Joscho Stephan does an interesting demo where he plays a couple of snippets in gypsy style and then in a more traditional jazz style, to show the difference. Anybody who plays classical guitar plus other styles must alternate; and of course any steel player, banjo player, bass player, flamenco player, etc. winds up doing this. You wind up thinking about them as if they are different instruments -- like switching to the piano or a horn.

This being said, it is hard to lock yourself into one style when you have multiple sets of chops, especially when playing fast. So those who always play the same way probably have more consistency and "purity" -- just as you'd expect. And there are relatively few multi-instrumentalist performers who can really carry off switching from horn to piano to guitar etc. -- though of course they do exist, and we curse their talented souls .

So if I were you, I would try to cultivate and preserve your existing technique. However, while learning a new style, it may be easier to focus on it exclusively for a number of months, to lock in the finger memory, then return to your other style once your brain can keep them distinct. Like going to France to learn to speak French.

Just my opinion.