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In this Discussion
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Humbucker on a Selmac, revisited
shega
Colorado✭✭✭
Ever since the posting of the modified Selmac--with the Kent Armstrong pickups, I have been curious about how the people who have played them (Michael, Josh, others...) feel about them now, after the honeymoon period.
I am wondering about the effect this modification has on the acoustic sound of the guitar. Many archtops have mounted humbuckers, often two of them, and they still have a reasonable acoustic sound (and some probably have a wonderful sound), so it seems that the modification is not without precedent.
Michael expressed tremendous satisfaction with the sound of his humbucker-equipped Gitane 340, thinking thinking it's sound superior to the Stimer sound. I am wondering if, Michael, you are so happy with the sound of that guitar that you are still using it whenever possible. How does it sound acoustically?
Here are my questions, and my own predicament:
First of all, I have a Dupont that sounds great, and of course I do not want to mount a humbucker on it! It sounds good with my mid 90's era Stimer.
But my second guitar, a Japanese-built Saga from the 1980's (the very model used from time to time by Angelo) is a likely candidate for this modification. It has a warm acoustic tone, and is absolutely stunning to look at (nicer looking than my Dupont, actually, and my wife seems to prefer its tone...). I have been envisioning it with a full humbucker, embedded just like Josh has done, but I wonder, will it kill the acoustic tone completely, or is it not so bad?
What do you all think? Has anyone else been considering this mod?
I am wondering about the effect this modification has on the acoustic sound of the guitar. Many archtops have mounted humbuckers, often two of them, and they still have a reasonable acoustic sound (and some probably have a wonderful sound), so it seems that the modification is not without precedent.
Michael expressed tremendous satisfaction with the sound of his humbucker-equipped Gitane 340, thinking thinking it's sound superior to the Stimer sound. I am wondering if, Michael, you are so happy with the sound of that guitar that you are still using it whenever possible. How does it sound acoustically?
Here are my questions, and my own predicament:
First of all, I have a Dupont that sounds great, and of course I do not want to mount a humbucker on it! It sounds good with my mid 90's era Stimer.
But my second guitar, a Japanese-built Saga from the 1980's (the very model used from time to time by Angelo) is a likely candidate for this modification. It has a warm acoustic tone, and is absolutely stunning to look at (nicer looking than my Dupont, actually, and my wife seems to prefer its tone...). I have been envisioning it with a full humbucker, embedded just like Josh has done, but I wonder, will it kill the acoustic tone completely, or is it not so bad?
What do you all think? Has anyone else been considering this mod?
Comments
The real problem is strings and setup. Generally, whenever you're using a magnetic pickup, be it a Stimer or humbucker, it's going to sound it's best with nickel strings and low action. That way you get an even string response through the pickup. But that type of setup seriosuly attenuates the acoustic proprieties of the guitar. So you really have to commit the guitar to electric playing if you want it to sound it's best amplified. You could try using Argies and higher action with a humbucker, but it wouldn't be ideal.
If you do this, I'd highly recommend the Benedetto Humbucker....it's a lot better then the Kent Armstrong we used on the prototype:
Benedetto
B6 Standard Mount Humbucker (6 String)
I now use an archtop with a benedetto humbucker in it for most gigs. Love it!
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An archtop for most gigs! What archtop are you using--does it provide a good rhythm sound?
I am thinking about adding a (cheap) archtop to my arsenal (I am looking at the Epi Emperor Regent, which has uncountable "bang for the buck" reviews, and also pondering the Eastmans). I have almost no experience with guitars other than my Dupont (and the old Saga), but I absolutely love the sound of archtops played acoustically. In fact, I wonder why they have not played a stronger role in our beloved gypsy-played jazz, especially when it is played by non-gypsies.
Archtops seem to fall into either the acoustically viable instruments with floating pickups, or the mounted humbucker type, with (often) a laminate top. It seems that the mounted humbucker type wouldn't really have much of an acoustic tone—but might be able to get away with light gauge strings.
Two thoughts about archtops:
1. STRINGS: I am addicted to the use of light gauge strings for vibrato and bending. I was thinking that if I put a humbucker in a selmac, I could get the benefit of a humbucker with the light strings of a selmac. Archtops seem to require 13's and higher, don't they? Perhaps a more humbucker-oriented archtop (mounted, not floating) could get away with 11's or 12's? Is that what you do?
2. STRONG POMPE: My immediate need will be to provide rhythm in a bar gig. I am afraid my bandleader will protest if the envisioned (cheap) archtop sounds too unacoustic. Would a Schertler Basik attached to a cheap (perhaps laminate archtop like an Epi Emperor Regent) add some worthwhile acoustic tone into the mix along with the floating pu?
Thanks!
It's a Benedetto...rhythm sound is sublime!
I owned a Korean made Emperor regent and it was pretty bad...I'd go for the Eastman. They are copies of Benedettos...pretty good for the $. My bandmate uses one. He removed the facotry pu which wasn't so great and put in a Benedetto humbucker...funny now that I think of it. We're a Gypsy jazz band that performs mostly on archtops...ha ha.
If you can go as high as $3000 or so I'd get a Gibson L-7 from the years 1939-1955 or so. Those are amazing guitars with a huge acoustic sound. Especially the ones that haven't had pickups put in them. Mostly overlooked by collectors as they want the fancy L-5 or super 400. But the L-7 usually sounds better IMO and doesn't cost $25,000.
Many Gypsies play archtops....Ninine Garcia, Bireli, Wawau Adler, Boulou Ferret, Django, etc, etc. Mostly electric though....with the introduction of magnetic pickups archtops mostly stopped being acoustic guitars. So if you wanted acoustic volume you needed a Selmer type guitar. But if you find the right archtop, mostly pre-1955, then you can get something with almost as much volume. Mostly Gibsons (L7 and Super 300 are my favorites) or Epiphone (the Broadway, Deluxe, Emperor, etc). Also, some of the contemporary builders have brought back the acoustic archtop. Benedetto is probably the leader of that....his guitars are ultra light weight like a Selmer and have lots of acoustic volume. I've done acoustic gigs on mine. I've also tried some Mark Lacey guitars which had a lot of acoustic volume.
That's another thing I forgot to mention....if you're using magnetic pickups you really want to stick with heavier strings. On an archtop with a 25" scale I would never go lighter then 12s, and may go as high as 14s. Most archtops players do this as it sounds much better. But a few do go with light strings, but I never like the tone as much. Heavier strings just have more magnetic potential so they translate better through a magnetic pu.
The Gitane that we rigged sounded great with 12 gauge flatwounds and low action. How is that for a gypsy setup???
My setup recommendations are:
Acoustic: High action, light strings, acoustic type string (silver plated on a Selmer, bronze on an archtop).
Electric (magnetic pu): low action, heavy strings, nickel strings.
Archtops are great for Gypsy jazz rhythm, and may be preferable to Selmer type guitars in many occasions. If your band leader gives you a hard time just tell him that Django used an archtop on many occasions. And so did his rhythm player Eugene Vees!!!
Yes, the Basik should give a nice acoustic sound. Although, if you install one of the Benedetto humbuckers you'll get good results. They have a lot acoustic type detail and work great for rhythm.
All in all, the line between and "acoustic sound" and an "electric sound" is not as clear as people think. Many "acoustic" pickups like the bigtone and Schertler can sound more "electric" then humbuckers. There are so many variables...
'm
As Michael said, The Eastmans are a great value and old L-7s or EPI Triumphs will do the trick. Even an old L-50 might work.
The Selmacs have an exotic "euro" look, but I have found that most non Gypsy jazz laymen and musicians alike prefer the sound of an archtop.
Don't mess up your Saga if you like its tone. If you want to go electric...get a different guitar.
Cheers,
Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com
Marc,
Thank you for your response. What do you mean that a (cheap) laminate archtop can work for playing lead? It seems that lead would be so prominant in the overall mix, that a (cheap) laminate would work anywhere but there?
Secondly, what is it about a carved top that is soooo critical for rhythm?
Do you guys actually PREFER archtop for rhythm? What about lead?
I am amazed at the acousitic tone of the archtops I have heard, but I am also, equally amazed by the tone of my own Dupont, and in particular a Vielle Reserve I played in Tokyo this month. Still, the archtops have such a magnificent sound, but I am not familiar with any recordings of archtops being played in gypsy swing. I would love to hear them.
As far as doctoring my own Saga, I am not so attached to its tone that I would miss it if it had a humbucker in it. I could put a humbucker in it for fun while searching for the right ($) archtop. IF it sounds good, which Michael and Josh (and the person who purchased one from Djangobooks) affirm. Right now, it's a beautiful, but unneeded spare, and I don't know if anyone would be interested in buying it with so many new Sagas in the market. When I want to play, I reach for my Dupont, every time.
Thank you both for your resoponses, I feel myself being pulled into the realm of the archtop enthusiasts.
I like both Selmacs and archtops for both rhythm and lead in this genre. If you are playing amplified rhythm guitar, I recommend either piezo or a microphone (as opposed to a magnetic pickup. Stimers , Dearmonds and especially humbuckers lack the cut for playing rhythm without a drummer.
I have found that the DYN-G works well on an acoustic archtop if you place it on the back of the guitar.
Cheers,
Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com
I just use D'Addario 12 gauge nickel strings....much louder acoustic, cheaper, and they last longer. Thomastiks are like $20 a set now!
When I had a Gibson Johnny Smith I used the George Benson Thomastiks...14 gauge. That guitar was made for flats...
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1.) "Electricky" sounding laminated archtop with mag pickup doing rhythm. Mayo starts in at about 1 minute into the song... "Schwick Schwick Schwick" sounds like a Stratocaster... and he is a good rhythm guitarist too - so this isn't about his technique.
2.) Great carved acoustic archtop in the hands of the God of carved acoustic archtop rhythm. This is what swing rhythm is all about.
And there are a ton of good and bad examples of rhythm done on gypsy jazz guitars - probably the seminal good example being the clip of HCQF doing J'Attendrai. But here's an example of a couple of guys just knocking out tune in a park. Both have good rhythm hands.
Well... OK, it's noon on the 4th of July... time to go blow crap up! Happy 4th everyone.
The guy playing with Bousquet in this video is also going electric: