latin rhythms

Jack

Hey, Ted.

I've been bugging Dennis over at Technique about some aspects of the bossa rhythm, and I'd like to hear your take on how it (and the other latin rhythms) took root in the style. It's certainly different enough from what most people think of as 'Bossa' to warrant a history of it's own. Any notions?

Best,
Jack.

stubla

jack
its not bossa at all of course
its really related to Rhumba
i have to say its an aspect of the 'modern' style that leaves me cold;which is probably why i don't like the Rosenbergs as much a many of you guys
its just too cheesy for me :-)
Stu

Ando

I'm surprised that a more recognizably 'gitano' influence didn't come from the Ferret family.

Dregni says the Ferret roots are in Andalusia, though they'd lived in Rouen for several generations, sedentary, before Matelot was born. Matelot's uncles (Baro the Elder, Pebbo, and Fillon) taught him and his brothers to play, and this probably included some "flamenco," whatever it was. Flamenco has never been a single form or style: it expresses a range, like most catch-all terms.

One of the instruments the boys played was the bandurria. Pic and info here:

http://www.instrumentworld.info/info.php?id=bandurria

More to the point, the rhythms of flamenco are multi-layered cross-rhythms. Not the repetitive, strummed, "rhumba" style Stu describes.

The flat rhumba style is probably better suited to showcasing the melodic work of the soloist by presenting a flatter, less obtrusive background.

Cheers,
Ando

Ando

Hi Ted, I think you misunderstand me. I meant that I'm sort of surprised a gitano influence didn't come from the Ferrets, given their family connections, but cearly it did not.

I would have liked to hear Matelot attempt something "Andalusian." He and Boulou have such telepathy -- it would have been interesting and probably dynamic. Boulou would have made perfect mischief.

Cheers,
Ando

stubla

Ando wrote:

Hi Ted, I think you misunderstand me. I meant that I'm sort of surprised a gitano influence didn't come from the Ferrets, given their family connections, but cearly it did not.

I would have liked to hear Matelot attempt something "Andalusian." He and Boulou have such telepathy -- it would have been interesting and probably dynamic. Boulou would have made perfect mischief.

Cheers,
Ando

Ando
Actually Elios Ferre is really into Flamenco and studied it for many years
I love good flamenco of course;its the 'tourist' variety i can't stand!
Stu

Ando

Right, Stu, and you probably know too that Koen De Cauter and his son, Myrddin, play flamenco styles pretty well, too. The question is how much those styles permeate "gypsy jazz" and how that came about.

I'm taking the wild foraging for truffles in the woods approach to this question, happy to leave the responsible historiography to Ted.

Here's an example. Baro Ferret wrote passages in his valses that are gitano in character and rhythm. This shouldn't be surprising, as his originals are interesting collages of material. "L'inattendu" is a great example. It's like a weird outer-space musette, but right in the middle (0:59) are a few measures of descending melody in B major (bars 17-20) the form and mood of which sound gitano: even the bass figure changes its rhythm to suit. It's one of those odd mercurial passing moments that make Baro's music so interesting.

So I think we might broaden this discussion by digging deeper into pieces of music to discern where various influences permeate them.

I realize that's probably more than Jack was asking for, but details are fun: they open up so many paths to explore.

I'm going to get around to listening to Boulou and Elios more, natch.

Cheers,
Ando

scot

The Ferrets had lived in Rouen for a long time, but there was still a connection to Spain, as they could speak speak calo, a spanish gypsy dialect made up of roma, spanish and arabic. Later in life Matelot told a friend of mine that he'd forgotten how to speak it because he had no use for it. He made numerous records with Spanish and Corsican singers. His tunes Como Tu, Quiseira, etc were often refered to as "romances espagnoles", too. And I have a picture of Sarrane playing electric guitar with a very latino-looking man playing timbales, an instrument strongly associated with latin rhythm. The Ferrets were professional musicians, and I think they could and did play latin music just as easily as anything else they played.

There were also many musette standards that had paso doble rhythm. There were other latin-sounding favorites like "Sombreros and Mantillas" and the Viseur tune "Andalousie". Jo Privat recorded all sorts of weird latin stuff. The famed bal Tabarin became known as the home of Tango, and I think that the Ferrets had recorded with the proprietor, Joseph Colombo in the 30s, and thus may have played there later on, too. Baro and Django were strongly influenced by Poulette Castro who was a spanish speaking gitane and recorded with an Argentine singer. There is history...

Ando

Thank you, Scot! God, it would have been scrapping hard to make a living back then, but look at the sheer variety of music these guys could play. Wonderful.

Barengero

scot wrote:

He made numerous records with Spanish and Corsican singers. ...

Hi Scot,

I am always interested in that corsican scene, but I didn´t knew that Matelot made recordings with corsican singers. Can you tell some examples, please?

Best,

Barengero

scot

Matelot Ferret made many recordings with Robert Ripa and Antoine Ciosi in the 50s and 60s. Those are just the ones I know about, I think there are more.