Spontaneous Imrov vs. Playing Lines/Phrases

Duozona

BBop Harry

I think we were typing the same ideas at the same time!

Ando

Hey a,

That's nice playing on your myspace site.

It should be possible to spontaneously improvise chord progressions in a Hungarian folk style. The harmonic rules are fairly straightforward and flexible, have a marvelous emphasis on the diminished, and frequently change tonality. All the leading tones make the movements easy to predict and so stay together.

Plus, this is all done rubato with the rhythm section taking the lead -- very easy for a soloist to decorate it, nudge it around, and make a very extroverted statement.

Ando

a

Thanks Ando.

Can you post some examples?

Ando

I don't know of any spontaneously generated ones, but here's a rough example of the kind of harmony involved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh9-D6W3 ... re=related

I don't know if this is a traditional/set thing or not, but if you imagine the accompanist providing the harmony, it's easy to imagine how the soloist could come in on top of it.

As long as the harmony has a clear, strong root, even an intermediate soloist should be able to follow and do something with it.

The challenge would be in "modernizing" the harmony. If one starts with something simple, then any repetition could introduce substitutions, more altered tones, etc.

Of course, this leaves aside all the rhythmic permutations, and different stylistic directions, you could take things.

A valse is another structure that can be improvised completely because there are fairly clear and traditional ground rules.

Basically, the trick is establishing a discernible "game." If you don't, or if it's too complicated or imperceptible, listeners won't have anything to pay attention to -- they won't be able to distinguish order from randomness.

Bones

This may be off the topic but I've always wondered...

While I am quite sure that Django was a phenomenal improvisor, when I study his recorded solos sometimes they are, themselves, such perfectly composed melodies that I wonder how much of it was worked out ahead of time or if they are spontaneously improvised.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

Stackabones

Bones wrote:

This may be off the topic but I've always wondered...

While I am quite sure that Django was a phenomenal improvisor, when I study his recorded solos sometimes they are, themselves, such perfectly composed melodies that I wonder how much of it was worked out ahead of time or if they are spontaneously improvised.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

Well, it wouldn't be unheard of to have worked out something beforehand. And as a longtime performer and improviser, I notice that I approach some tunes in similar ways each time I play them. Certain riffs, licks, motifs are always popping up. You can hear something similar to this in alternate takes of some classic jazz reissues.

Though there are always moments with the sprites of spontaneity will push your fingers towards new frets.

Matthias Lenz

Bones wrote:

This may be off the topic but I've always wondered...

While I am quite sure that Django was a phenomenal improvisor, when I study his recorded solos sometimes they are, themselves, such perfectly composed melodies that I wonder how much of it was worked out ahead of time or if they are spontaneously improvised.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

Hi Bones,

here´s my opinion : A "perfectly composed" melody often is in a kind of perfect relation to the harmony underneath. If you know how to play through chord changes by using arpeggios, and probably connecting them nicely with some chromatic notes , then you will automatically come up with something that just fits. Learning to improvise in this way is essential for jazz improvisation, and the more experience you have, the more you will come up with something tasty on the spot.

It needn´t be the full chord arpeggio all the time. Often a short phrase or motiv made out of just a few notes (that are part of the arp) does it. I have Stephane Wrembel´s "Getting into GJ", and this book gives you a very good start on this. Also priceless : Try to play a melody (composed or improvised) like you would sing it. Just thinking differently about something you´re familiar with can bring fantastic results.

So much for my opinion on this...

best,
Matthias

scot

There is a long tradition in Europe generally and among gypsies in particular, to play many variations of a theme. I have seen this a lot playing with Russian gypsies on tunes like "Two Guitars", where there are many variations, always played about the same way and in the same order. But a casual listener might think they were improvisations...

I also always wondered about this in Django's playing. And for me, I agree with Bones - while Django was surely one of the greatest improvisers, some of those highly realized solos, like "Django's Tiger" had to have been fully worked out. Which is OK, because after all, the point of making a recording is to make a recording people will want to listen to.

Back to Alex's original question, at the moment I don't see much tolerance in the world of gypsy jazz for true jazz improvisation - as Chuck referenced, people walked out on the Ferre Brothers! This has been discussed here more than once, and I think that for now, the majority of players (at least here in the USA) feel that if you stray too far from the established riffs, phrases and repertoire,a la Tchavolo, then it stops being "gypsy jazz". This attitude is closer to the bluegrass flatpicker's POV and not really jazz thinking at all. It's more like folk tradition. Which is probably as it has to be, because there don't seem to be many players with jazz skills playing this music right now.

I'm not a trained jazz musician but I have played with a lot of jazz musicians. I love playing the traditional djangocentric style of "gypsy jazz" and practice this style every day. But I know this, too - you can play strings-only jazz music that is influenced by Django and it sounds great. I have played tunes by Monk, Dexter Gordon, Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, Eric Dolphy, Dave Brubeck, Lenny Tristano and so on in the "two-gypsy-guitar/bass" format. It's harder than endlessly riffing over "Minor Swing" but a great challenge if you're interested in doing your own thing as opposed to playing a fixed repertoire and other peoples riffs and phrases.

The history of this music always allowed a lot of liberty to do your own thing. Let's try not to lose that.

CalebFSU

Scot- i have to say I agree. But I often wonder why this is. Is it because so many people here in the U.S. come to this music from bluegrass that the mentality followed? I don't get to see the nitty gritty of the fans of this music in the U.S. other than on this message board. Is the mentality that pervasive? Even with all the praise being heaped on the Selmer 607 project and the praise being given out to Adrien and Sebastian which by the way they fully deserve. When I saw Adrien playing Impressions as modal and as modern as you can get Jazz tune I was elated. I can't imagine musicians walking out of the Ferre brothers concerts :shock: . Casual listeners maybe but self -proffessed Jazz musicans? really? I always have looked at this music as Jazz there is a lot of freedom here, or at least room for it. Maybe not in the extreme free way of the Don Cherry Ornette Coleman school but Adrien playing Impressions is proof positive that the trad. line up can play modern Jazz and the art form evolves. Maybe I am removed from the can't do this can't do that type of cats so I don't hear it but weren't we always improvissing?

Adelaarvaren

Just for perspective, people were walking out on the Rosenbergs at DFNW Saturday night.

I think they either just didn't get it, couldn't process it because it was too fast, or were just old and tired and ready to go to bed.