Django during the war.

simplygoodmusic

I saw a documentary a short while ago which correctly questioned how Django, a gypsy AND a jazz player managed to survive the second world war, even though he lived in nazi ruled Paris.

Unfortunatly the documentary never answered that so a quick google search led me to this wikipedia article-

Wikipedia wrote:

When World War II broke out, the original quintet was on tour in the United Kingdom. Reinhardt returned to Paris at once[8], leaving his wife behind. Grappelli remained in the United Kingdom for the duration of the war. Reinhardt reformed the quintet, with Hubert Rostaing on clarinet replacing Grappelli's violin. In 1943, Django married Sophie Ziegler in Salbris, with whom he had a son, Babik Reinhardt, who became a respected guitarist in his own right.

Reinhardt survived World War II unscathed, unlike the many Gypsies who perished in the porajmos, the Nazi regime's systematic murder of several hundred thousand European Gypsies, quite a few of whom were sent to death camps. He was especially fortunate because the Nazi regime did not allow jazz to be performed and recorded. He apparently enjoyed the protection of the Luftwaffe officer Dietrich Schulz-Köhn, nicknamed "Doktor Jazz", who deeply admired his music.

Does anybody know more about this? Its a fascinating story if you ask me. Who is this Doktor Jazz? Who else was saved because of him? And what kind of life did Django lead during those years?

scot

The information quoted from the wiki is fundamentally incorrect (as it was in the documentary which I presume was Jamie Kastner's film). The issue of jazz during the war is a complex one - though it is often assumed that jazz was prohibited in the occupied contries, this simply isn't true. Many jazz musicians admitted later that they rarely had it so good again. The definitive English text on this subject is Mike Zwerin's book "Le Tristesse de St-Louis - Jazz Under the Nazis", which may have a different title nowadays.

Zwerin was the jazz critic for the International Herald-Tribune and a semi-professional trombonist. When he started looking into this subject, he too assumed that jazz was prohibited by the nazi. The book details his researches across Europe and he is honest about his own feelings as he debunks his own long-held beliefs. This book is essential reading for anyone who is interested in what actually happened in the European jazz world during the war. Dietrich Schulz-Köhn was actually a real person and his role in all of this is covered in Zwerin and also in Dregni.

Another source for information on this subject is the documentary film "Chantons sous l'Occupation" which is more about popular music in Paris during the war. Individual behavior in occupied territory is a complicated subject, and in this documentary many points of view are examined, from the opinion of a partisan fighter to a brothel manager's POV.

Zwerin's book did not examine the summary judgements made on many entertainers in France after the war. For example the jazz violinist Michel Warlop (who made numerous records with Django) was denounced and summarily banished from Paris. He wound up playing in bars in Bordeaux for tips and died of alcoholism and shame. And really, the evidence against him appers today to be pretty slim.

And don't forget, the office of the old Hot Club in rue Chaptal was a weapons depository for resistance fighters. Charles Delauney and his secretary were arrested for partisan activities - she ultimately perished in a prison camp, I think. Delauney talks about this in a documentary film called "The Story of Jazz in France".

I think it would be a stretch to describe any jazz musicians as collaborators. That is unless you feel that anyone who did not actively resist all the time collaborated - and there were/are people who have this point of view. It's a complicated subject...

Jack

I'm glad to see Scot weigh in on this one; we don't have many historians with his knowledge. One thing I think is especially important is this line:

scot wrote:

though it is often assumed that jazz was prohibited in the occupied contries, this simply isn't true.

I'd add that Paris was a particular exception, as the Nazi regime (as I understand it) planned to use the city as an "anything goes" area for soldiers on leave. Awful as they were, the German leaders understood the draw of Paris, of jazz, and of debauchery. If keeping troop morale high meant letting Django play, so be it. And bear in mind that he always refused the increasingly strong demands that he play in Germany.

I didn't know about the Zwerin book but will definitely track it down now; as for the Kastner documentary, I share Scot's feelings (and those of many others in the gypsy jazz community): it's a misguided film that trades in rumor and innuendo, then presents it as fact. (If I remember correctly, there's a scene where Kastner asks how the Gypsies would feel if they knew their hero was a "Nazi collaborator.")

Finally, it's worth mentioning that any wiki is suspect...anyone can add to an entry or edit it, and there's very little fact-checking, especially for a subject so small as this. And with someone like Django, whose life itself has become the stuff of legend, the half-truths can mushroom into canon before you know it. For the straight dope, this forum is probably the best place you can go.

best,
Jack.

simplygoodmusic

Interesting answers.

I did infact kow that Jazz musicians were not persecuted to the full, but Django's continued recording through the war made it seem to me like his situation was different. Though Jack's answer regarding the role of Paris makes a lot of sense, and I was aware of the fact, but simply did not connect it.

Nonetheless I'm still suprised at the fact that Django was let off when being not only a jazz musician, but also a gypsy. As far as I know, that fact would have gotten anyone killed. Again, Jack's explanation provides a lot of clarity on the matter.

It was indeed Kastner's film - and you are right in saying that it is in fact misguided, but I found the topic interesting whether or not the film presented the arguments one way or the other. The war was a dark time in human history, and every individual who survived has their own story to tell. The questions he posed did infact intrigue me. As for his accusations...they were bogus on several different level, as was his portrayal of Django as a cynical character- he of course hand picked the information he let through. But just because the manner in which he poses the questions is debatable, does not make the questions themselves any less releveant. This particular one stands out, in my mind at least.

And you are right about wiki, which is why I specifically mentioned that that was were I got the information - to be proven wrong if nothing else.

And scot- you obviously know a lot about the subject and I thank you for taking the time to impart with some of it. I'll be sure to keep my eye out for Zwerin's book and the aforementioned documentary.

scot

None of the gypsy guitarists in Paris were persecuted during the occupation. Django was far from the only jazz musician in Paris who continued to perform and make records. In fact with the single exception of the violinist Georges Effrosse, who perished in the Dora camp (and he was Jewish and had little chance of escape anyway), I can not think of a single incident in Paris where a musician was persecuted solely for being a jazz musician. Even in Germany, swingy recordings were made - certain records by violinist Helmut Zacharias (Alfio Grasso, guitar) and bandleader Tulio Mobiglia come to mind. Jazz musicians were also more or less free to work in Belgium and Netherlands.

An American jazz musician named Mike Danzi worked as a professional musician in Berlin up until the late 30s. He's pretty much unknown in N America today yet his story is a very interesting one. You can learn something about him and his experiences in Berlin before the war here: http://www.centerforjazzarts.org/danzi_exhibition.html.

Of course, none of this is to excuse the nazi regime in any way. The point here is only that when it comes to things like this the obvious answer might not be the correct answer - many people have made the mistake of assuming that the nazi did prohibit jazz, and that includes Mike Zwerin and me too. You think of the nazi, and you can't imagine him coexisting with something like jazz. Yet it happened. An uneducated amateur like Kastner is not the best person to make a film dealing with so complex and nuanced a subject. I think he was ignorant of the facts - his intent was entirely to provoke, not educate. Finding out about this stuff isn't all that difficult, but he didn't do it.

The subject of collaboration and who did or did not do it - man, that is complicated and can't be answered quickly or easily. And thanks for your compliments.

S

Teddy Dupont

We have actually discussed this subject many times before and as I have often said, to suggest Django was a collaborator is a complete failure to understand the character of the man.

Scot has picked up on most of the key points but I think for much of the time, the war simply passed over Django because he only really cared about music, women and gambling. He would only become concerned with the occupation if it interfered with any of these activities. For much of the time, he was not of the real world. He neither attempted to alienate or collaborate with the Germans, he simple tried to survive in dreadful circumstances as did most French people.

In addition to the points mentioned previously, he had the added advantage of the Germans taking a much more relaxed attitude to gypsies in France than in most other occupied countries. Despite their ethnic origins, both he and Sarane Ferret were at their most popular in France during the war.

Regardless of the official propoganda, the German troops loved jazz and Django was the best jazz musician outside of America. The majority of them did not care whether he was a gypsy or not.

simplygoodmusic

Teddy Dupont wrote:

We have actually discussed this subject many times before and as I have often said, to suggest Django was a collaborator is a complete failure to understand the character of the man.

I don't think anyone doubts this fact. Not even questioning it

This is more about understanding the German occupation's attitude towards Django. NOT the other way around.

Teddy Dupont

simplygoodmusic wrote:

Teddy Dupont wrote:

..... and as I have often said, to suggest Django was a collaborator is a complete failure to understand the character of the man.

I don't think anyone doubts this fact. Not even questioning it

No I didn't think you were but it has been implied/suggested by others; Jamie Kastner for example. One actually suggested Django had been blacklisted after the war as a result of his collaboration with the Germans and others that the dwindling interest in his music was caused by his activities during the war. Both quite untrue.

simplygoodmusic wrote:

This is more about understanding the German occupation's attitude towards Django. NOT the other way around.

I think despite all the aggressive, unyielding rhetoric, the Germans could be very pragmatic when it suited them. As long as Django did not cause problems and entertained the troops and French public alike, the high command was prepared to turn a blind eye to the fact that he was a gypsy playing jazz. The well known photo below taken during the war of a gypsy, a Nazi soldier (Schultz Kohn), several black entertainers and a Jew says it all:-

Django also had the intuitive cunning of a gypsy to know how to "disappear" when it was necessary.

Cuimean

The documentary film Propaganda Swing: Dr. Goebbels' Jazz Orchestra also sheds some light on the complexity of this era.

richdaigle

Django was definitely saved by the explosion of Jazz at such an unlikely time. Wrote some of his greatest stuff, lived like a king, Nuages sold something like 200,000 copies. Things may have been different had he been a 8 fingered gypsy playing tuba in a polka band.

scot

I've been rereading Zwerin this morning; the book is full of interesting facts and perspectives. He talked to a LOT of people including Germans, none of whom especially shied away from the uncomfortable parts. I strongly recommend this book to anyone who is interested in jazz and totalitarian regimes - it was written before the fall of the old Soviet Union and has some interesting perspectives from Iron Curtain jazz musicians, too.