Welcome all mandoheads!

jmcgann · January 2005

Hello everyone-

I'd like to give you all a hearty welcome to the Gypsy Jazz Mandolin Forum. Y'all play nice, now, 'cause I'm the moderator :twisted:

I'm going to be whipping up some mando-specific lessons and also sharing some opinions on the mando side of things.

I've been a huge Django fan since I was in high school almost 30 (sigh) years ago. My experience is that despite the differences in tuning and Django's decidedly "guitaristic" approach, you can gain tons from working on his vocabulary on mando. Also, fiddle stuff is often a natural on mando, so don't overlook Stephane, and if you are brave, Florin (but don't hurt yourself!)

I play a Zeidler F style, which is actually pretty refined sounding. and also really love the Sobell Octave Mandolin, which has it's own Selmer-esque honk.

As you were... :twisted:

jmcgann · January 2005

Ted- Excellent question and I'd say "viability" totally depends on the player. I am not a fan of "slumming" and we've all experienced the swaggering puffed-up condescending ego of (insert player from some idiom) deciding "I can do that" and trying to play (insert another idiom) and falling flat on their face. I've seen rock guitarists assume they could play bluegrass or country and do it; jazz players trying to play rock, etc. I personally don't care at all for bluegrass players playing bluegrass licks on swing tunes any more than I care for jazz lines (exclusively) on fiddle tunes.

Personally- I try to honor what is unique about each idiom I play for musical reasons, and also to avoid that dilletante tag. That said, I know I will never be accepted as a "pure traditional" player in ANY idiom, whether it is Bluegrass, Gypsy Jazz or Irish. Ah, well. I have devoted myself to each of these styles long enough to feel I have a firm grasp.

On the other hand, there are always self appointed experts trying to rain on the parade of anyone, and playing an instrument "from outside the norm" puts a bullseye on one's forehead. So I'd say to mando players- go for it, be brave, but do your homework and learn the vocabulary of the idiom, and figure out where YOU fit within it, and go for it with as much soul as you can conjure. The mando by nature is not a guitar, so there has to be some leeway, and a very good sense of what is right for the style is called for...

I mean, I'm gonna be a Gadjo whether I play mando, guitar, or contrabassoon anyway.

Part of doing your homework extends to the people who influenced Django- for instance Louis Armstrong!

I can "hear" mandolin in most settings of this music, especially an ensemble setting like Note Manouche.

and to hell with the begrudgers.

rosett · January 2005

well said john.
for me, django's music has always been alot more accessable than most other guitarists, as far as influencing my mandolin playing. when i first became interested in jazz mandolin, there wasn't much of it you could listen to, and the hot club music was my main inspiration.
it's cool that we mandolinists have a place here at djangobooks. there's hope for us yet.
john

jmcgann · January 2005

Bebop guitarist Jimmy Raney spoke disparagingly of Django by saying "That's not guitar playing, that's mandolin"...meant to be a real insult!

Jimmy was evidently a bit fond of the gargle, though, so maybe he was caught in a grumpy mood. I always preferred Tal and Wes to Jimmy myself!

musicofanatic · February 2005

I say an emphatic YES to the mandolin in gypsy jazz! First of, rhythmically the mandolin fits perfectly with it's percussive, honking sound (for me, either my Gibson oval hole, or f-hole a-style). Chunking four-to-the-bar, a rollicking gallup, or dramatic tremoloed chords. Just loose those spread-out blue grass chord positions and use tighter, denser voicings incorporating 6ths, ninths, maj/min 7s, raised 11ths, etc. As a solo voice it comprises components of both the violin (pitch range, fingerings, etc.) and gtr (percussive plectral power!). As to how exact transcriptions of Django solos fall on the mandolin, I personally would spend a hell of a lot less time on that, and more on aspiring to capture the feel, emotion, and fire of this type of music.

delsbrother · September 2005

TedGottsegen wrote:

is it possible for a player to come into this style but to leave his other musical baggage (i.e. bluegrass) at the door? I really love this instrument, but can't stand when I hear Bill Monroe-esque playing (not that I have a problem with it, I just don't care for bluegrass music) at the door?

Hi, I'm new to this forum but I've found quite a bit of these references - that mando players would be welcome "as long as they're not Bluegrass;" "Beat the Bluegrass out of them," etc.

I realize this is like describing a flavor to someone, but what exactly do you mean? Play rhythm without using closed Monroe-type chopping? Solo differently? What? It would seem to me from casual observance the two styles are more alike than different. :?:

Can you "stand it" when David Grisman plays gypsy jazz style? I'm thinking of his King of the Gypsies/DG-Stephane Grappelli live stuff as opposed to his outright New Acoustic/Dawg Style stuff.. Or, is Grisman IYO a good example of a Bluegrass player trying to play Gypsy? Please help me understand.

jmcgann · September 2005

My suggestion is to sit down and steep yourself in many hours of listening to Django and his followers- get a sense for the tradition and musical vocabulary. You wouldn't try to play bluegrass without studying up on Monroe and the tradition, right? :twisted:

Jazz and bluegrass are miles apart in harmonic content and rhythmic/technical approach, although there is some common ground; it is still best to figure out what makes an idiom tick rather than going for a one-size-fits-all approach.

delsbrother · September 2005

jmcgann wrote:

My suggestion is to sit down and steep yourself in many hours of listening to Django and his followers- get a sense for the tradition and musical vocabulary. You wouldn't try to play bluegrass without studying up on Monroe and the tradition, right? :twisted:

I guess I should've been more specific if I wanted a more practical answer. Can anyone (Ted?) give me an example of what a mandolin player might do to be considered "too Bluegrass" for a Gypsy Jam? Maybe this should be handled in a new thread - a primer on what NOT to do in a Gypsy Jam for newcomers, especially from BG Jams.. I would assume there are a fair amount of BG guitarists coming into the scene too.. I don't know. Just a thought from a beginner - I'd appreciate more advice than "listen to a lot of Django, you'll figure it out." I have listened to a lot; obviously I still need help.

jmcgann wrote:

Jazz and bluegrass are miles apart in harmonic content and rhythmic/technical approach, although there is some common ground; it is still best to figure out what makes an idiom tick rather than going for a one-size-fits-all approach.

Sorry, I misspoke again. Of course I understand there are differences in how the musics sound and how they're played. I guess what I was trying to say is the cultures based around them seem the same: both are (arguably) based on the playing of a single man; have characteristic rhythms; fiddle/violin content; improvisational soloing; large festivals full of jamming; etc. I was implying that fans of one genre would appreciate the others' music (though I suppose Ted's dislike of BG disproves that).

I've often heard Grisman's Dawg music described - perhaps inaccurately - as a fusion of BG and Django. I had assumed his style was to be admired and emulated. If that's not true, it would be nice to know who I should be modeling myself after.

jmcgann · September 2005

The improvisational vocabulary in jazz is totally different from that of bluegrass. if you want to play jazz, listen to the masters: Louis Armstrong (Django's idol), Charlie Christian, Jack Teagarden, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Art Tatum (Grappelli's idol), Django, Grappelli etc...learn to hear the melodic note choices against the chord of the moment, how to thread lines through the changes. Django is a great model for understanding how to tell a story in improvisation; how to play with dynamics, drama and humor. Many of Django's solos are totally diverse in rhythmic phrasing; that is, you hear long notes sustained, short notes attacked, loud and soft passages in various degrees of shading, tonal variation in right hand placement and attack and articulation, and actual SILENCE (how many bluegrass players ever take the pick off the strings?) and well as the famous rip-your-face-off fast runs that contain meaningful notes and not just "shred scales" crap.

Bluegrass lines do not "zigzag" the way jazz lines do, with chromaticism (generally); good jazz players do not constantly play long run-on lines of eighth notes the way bluegrass players do; bluegrass players do not use space and silence in their phrasing the way good jazz players do. Jazz rhythm playing is a distinctive art totally different from the bluegrass "chop". Bluegrass players do not know how to get the sound of a C7#11 or Am6 or E7b9 chord across, melodically (you can do this with single notes, unaccompanied, in a melodic fashion) or chord voicing wise, simply because that music (bluegrass) is triadic by nature. It's not a value judgement, just musical fact.

Playing jazz is challenging. No one who plays another style, be it bluegrass or Balkan, should expect to just drop into a jam and be competent without learning what the hell is going on, any more than a rock player should drop into a bluegrass jam and expect to be musically convincing. Bluegrass type playing usually sounds very lame (to me) against jazz chords. Jazz players can sound lame and totally wrong in a bluegrass setting, too- bluegrass has a different set of requirements, obviously!

Grisman is a unique stylist, and when you copy him in a Gypsy Jazz setting, you sound like a guy playing Grisman licks, just like a guy copying Tony Rice sounds like Cloney Rice (to me) in a bluegrass setting. Is that a bad thing? It depends on what it means to you. When you copy Django or Grapelli, you (at least) are playing idiomatically. Good models for any music are the masters who play it.

John Jorgensen is a good example of a guy who can play his ass off in a number of styles, and sound totally convincing in each...and even then, you'll have people in the Gypsy Jazz world bitch if he uses an occasional upstroke. Ah well. He is a player who lives up to a very high standard IMHO.

This, of course, is just my opinion, but it's a reasonably well informed one. It's a free country and you can play however you want, but a fellow Yankee curmudgeon once observed: my cat could have kittens in the oven, but that doesn't make them muffins :twisted:

I play a lot of different styles, and work like hell to not be a dilettante (i.e. getting the superficial doodads of a style without getting deeper into the crux of the biscuit).