Instrument?

KvonNJ

Hi.
I'm a newbie here, and, havinmg only been studying GJ for a few months, on my on (not a lot of resources in NJ.) and have a question.
I havent got the money for a selmer style guitar right now- even a relatively cheap knockoff. I have a real shallow bodied Epiphone and a big old Ibanez with an oversize soundhole I've been learning and practising on. Using really heavy strings and a pick the size of a cast iron skillet, I've felt like I'm doing ok. My form feels right, anyway. But without the real thing, guitar-wise, am I really just flailing around? I mean, am I wasting my time trying to learn on the instruments I have?
Advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!
-Karl

asd123321

You can learn the style on those but you need to have very light gauge strings to get the speed.

KvonNJ

Thanks for the tip. I've been using real heavy strings, figuring they'd have a sharper, more staccato sound. After playing on those, real light strings ( something like .012-.054, maybe?) should make me feel like I'm flying.
...Would I still use the massive, heavy pick of biblical proportions that I'm using now, or something lighter? Or do I just use the brick-like thing and adjust how hard I'm hitting the strings?
I don't mean to be a pain with all the questions, I just live somewhere where there's not a lot of GJ (I hate to think I'm "it," but in this part of NJ, I may be!) ad am gleaning all the knowledge I can from this site, the finding of which I am very grateful for.
Thanks!

BluesBop Harry

You can learn on any guitar... Of course it will sound better on a Selmac type and some things might be easier as well.

I'd say the strings don't matter much... use the ones that sound best with your guitar.
Due to the thin top and longer neck scale on gypsy guitars and also to get the right sound, silver copper wound strings or silk and steel are used in very light gauges, 10 or 11 for the high E, the standard strings are Savarez Argentines.

As for picks the most popular among gypsy jazz players are the Wegen gypsy jazz 3.5mm picks available through this site.

The traditional plectrum technique is called Gypsy picking and can be learned with the help of Michael Horowitz' book.

It's very important to learn the right way to play rhythm, called "la pompe", Horowitz' book on rhythm and Denis Chang dvd are the best resources.

KvonNJ

Thanks, Harry.
Let me ask this: when I DO get an appropriate GJ guitar, will I be playing on the suspension bridge cables I'm playing now, or lighter strings? (and must it be a Selmer type? Does anyone play any other style? I've seen some stuff about resonator guitars.)
Thanks again
-Karl

BluesBop Harry

Well if you do get a Selmac (oval or D-hole) type it should be strung with Argentines or similar, maximum gauge 11-46. It is recommended that you don't use heavier strings as this would put excessive pressure on the top risking structural damage to the guitar, plus too much tension will stop the top from vibrating freely and therefore it won't produce proper tone and volume.

A dobro or National resonator could be an alternative to a Selmac but they sound and feel different and in my experience are not as loud.

If I were you I would go straight for a Cigano they cost a little over $300 and make great starter gypsy guitars.

KvonNJ

Thanks again, Harry. Have you seen the Rondo SX DJG1 guitars? Look just like more expensive selmers, and it seems like with a little work, they're getting great reviews. Your thoughts?

Tele295

KvonNJ wrote:

Thanks again, Harry. Have you seen the Rondo SX DJG1 guitars? Look just like more expensive selmers, and it seems like with a little work, they're getting great reviews. Your thoughts?

Here's a discussion of the Rondo: http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26489

I'll echo the sentiments here and encourage you to hold out for a Cigano. It's only another $100, and it is an amazing instrument.

As far as your "frying pan" picks, you will find that GJ players use picks whose thickness is way off the scale from average guitar players. Before encountering the Wegens, the thickest pick I ever ran across was maybe 1.25 mm. Then you find these GJ picks that are 3.5-7mm. They are insane. But yes, they make all the difference in the world for making that sound, especially with a Selmac style instrument. I'm not sure you could wear one out (unlike a standrad Fender heavy), and the cost ensures you will not be careless and lose it.

rjs

I'm using a Taylor Dreadnaught (Model 710) that currently has medium gage strings on it. For rhythm it is working OK. Lead tone isn't the classic
but it works until I can swing another guitar.

The biggest help to getting "the sound" was using a good pick.
I picked up a Wegen Gypsy and that REALLY made a big difference
(even compared to good "heavy" picks like Claytons, Dunlops etc.)
There was a HUGE difference in rhythm playing. As soon as I got the
Wegen I was able to get a decent La Pompe sound. Without it, everything
was thin and weak.

--bob

BluesBop Harry

I'd steer clear of all the other cheap guitars, including: Rondo, Cordoba, Aria, Richwood, Rudy Larna.

Just save your moneys for a little while and order one from Djangobooks (no affiliation) a Cigano or Gitane will serve you well for the fist years of learning and afterwards when you have saved enough you'll be ready to upgrade to a Dupont or similar.

KvonNJ

Thanks, all, for the thoughts. and advice so far... it's really appreciated.
I put some real licht strings on my big old beast of an Ibanez, and while I was tuning (after years of playing folk/rock,) I was thinking, "No, no, no... this is just as wrong as a chicken wire canoe."
But so was that monstrous pick I use now, so, I gave it a shot.
When that brick... I mean pick... hit the Am triad for the first time and I went, "Boom chick-boom chick-boom..." I was sold. AMAZING difference.
Just for giggles, I also tried GJ technique on my old Dalelectro. It's the old "Convertible Pro" model... a hollow body with a TINY little sound hole and one, single "lipstic" pickup that sits on a pair of springs.
With the treble way up on both the amp and the guitar, it sounder like... a louder version of what I've been able to do so far. I was pretty geeked about the tone- I think if I experiment with strings and the placement of the bridge (they have a floating bridge) and maybe put a little piece of leather under the back of the tailpiece, I might have something interesting to fool with at open mic night at the coffee house by me. (That's the Grist Mill, inAndover, RJS. Familiar with it? Funky little place some Fridays...)
I know, I know... not "pure," but it sounded cool and it was fun. I think that's the point.
Meanwhile, I'm going to weigh options, but will probably hold out for a Cigano.