Constructive criticism on my rhythm playing

bohemewarbler

As I have come to understand it, and maybe I'm oversimplifying, there are fundamentally two rhythm styles used in this Gypsy Jazz style that one who is seriously interested in playing in this style should learn.

The more traditional style is with an upstroke. In the "Anniversary Song" Playback video I posted above, there is an upstroke added to the 1 and 3 beats consistently by David Gastine and Ghali Hadefi. But the upstroke is about as close to the 1 and 3 beats as one can possibly get.

In the "Minor Swing" rhythm demonstration of Adrien Moignard posted above, he is using no upstroke, but is raking the 1 and 3 beats.

Any of these three musicians can vary it up. To my ears, the two style sound equally great. When playing in a jam with more than two guitarists on rhythm, and with people you're not used to playing with, it is generally preferred to play without the upstroke.

To sound as good as the musicians above are performing in both of these styles, requires a lot of time and effort for most of us.

Buco

Yes but there's one thing though. The source of the traditional style is based on the recordings we have. Ok it could be that it was passed on throughout the Gypsy community as well. I'll stick with the recordings though.
Those recordings are very lo-fi.
So the recordings aren't telling us the whole story, actually they're masking a good chunk of it.
One song that I just listened to is the Sweet Georgia Brown, don't know which year, to me a great example of Hot Club rhythm section. It's only Django that's doing the upstroke, goes from adding upstroke to his rhythm to his signature shuffle comping over Stephane's head melody and solo and yes it sounds incredible and awesome.
I can't hear any upstroke from the rhythm section in this song.
But my point is not that, it's that when recording on the modern equipment, it's a whole different sound then the vintage recordings.

Pompier

I'm hearing an upstroke in the Moignard video as well, though it's a bit more subtle. You can hear him demonstrating this style at a slower tempo in the DC Music School video below (e.g., starting around 1:40). I don't really hear rhythmic styles falling into two categories, but rather into a myriad variations. However, I do think there's a watershed determined by technical ability. There are people who have mastered a quick flick of the wrist which produces the characteristic 1-3 stroke on the way down. These people can play a robust upstroke or a subtle upstroke or no upstroke at all, depending on the desired effect. Other people can only do a decent 1-3 downstroke with a relaxed upward movement (including myself at faster tempos), and I believe those folks should practice the flick of the wrist in the privacy of their own home and stick to downstrokes in public. The Gael Rouillac playlong below is a good illustration of that flick of the wrist because it's particularly quick in relation to the slower tempo. You can hear that the upstroke changes from beat to beat and sometimes disappears altogether, but the character of the accompaniment remains the same.

bohemewarbler

Adrien Moignard is definitely NOT using the upstroke in the Minor Swing rhythm demonstration I posted above, not even subtly.

As I noted above, these players vary it up (sometimes using upstrokes sometimes not) depending on the tune and the context in which they're playing. (FYI: Adrien was at my house in St. Louis a couple of years back and did a guitar workshop. He discussed this.)

My suggestion in learning this technique and getting it up to snuff is to use Garageband, but also use Amazing Slow Downer. You can start things off by slowing down the tune to a manageable speed (keeping the same pitch) and play along. Then gradually increase the speed to where you can manage it at quicker tempos.

Pompier

I was referring to the first 8 bars. He does skip it altogether after than point.

dennis

Adrien Moignard (and any good musician) uses the appropriate rhythm style for the vairous situations he encounters. In the first video with the Japanese bass player, the bass player is obviously not a Gypsy Jazz / Swing player and plays bass lines like a contemporary bassist with very little dynamics and legato notes, so Adrien plays a rhythm that he feels complements the bass player.

Other times, Adrien will use other styles.

Buco

Not that it matters one way or another but I hear the upstroke swoosh in both videos.

terrassier

Dont know if its slighty off track but I want to know why the swing part is so elusive and does it come and go with everyone ??- I had a day a while back where I was so chuffed that my rhythm was really swinging thought id got it ......and its gone again.
I need Dennis to come do a short homestay here in Brittany....... comes with free holiday cottage for the stay

You listening Dennis ??

bohemewarbler

Another option is to do a long stay and study with Denis Chang in Montreal. My fellow St. Louis GJ friend, Kyle Tindal, is staying with him there now!

Buco

@terrassier that's exactly what should happen. It's never been for me like "oh yeah, I got it now". It comes and goes but the longer you do it, the longer it stays with you until you own it.

What Dennis says yes, but when it comes to this upstroke business I doubt he was, at least on the two videos in this thread, making a conscious choice about any aspect of it.