Pompe for mandolin?

plectroman

Here's something that's been perplexing me as a result of being at some open jams w/ mostly real beginners. I can see mostly what the problems are with the inexperienced rhythm guitarists are but where do mandolinists fit into the accompaniment mix? Do they have a version of la pompe? If so what about the upstroke/downstroke question. Do they ever just chop 2&4 like in Bluegrass. Forgive me if this is not the proper place for this question but I've looked into the Mandolin forum and didn't see much about this.

MichaelHorowitz

Since mandolin isn't really a traditional instrument in Gypsy jazz there's no accepted method of accompaniment for it. Generally, I think la pompe works just fine on the mando. I've tried it and it can be done. Obviously you don't have the low notes so I found that muting with the left hand on 1 and 3 seems to help.

Unfortunately I've never heard a mandolin player really do a convincing pompe but it can be done. The closest is the way Hamilton de Holanda plays on jazz tunes. He has a great rhythm sound for that...

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plectroman

Thanks Michael. In terms of organizing a group of beginners, do you have any suggestions on how to help 2 rhythm guitarists who have trouble agreeing on phrasing and an inexperienced mando guy get on the same page? Would it help to have mando-guy just shoot for an accurate 2 & 4?

MichaelHorowitz

plectroman wrote:

Would it help to have mando-guy just shoot for an accurate 2 & 4?

That could probably work....although I fear if overdone it would make the whole thing sound too much like bluegrass.

rjs

It can be done, but like any of this it takes a bit of playing around and work. It is MUCH easier to get the "correct" tone out of a guitar.

Here are a couple of things that I have found that help:

1) Heavy pick - at least 1.5-2mm. The Wegen Gypsy is a good one to
practice with but I find it makes too much pick noise on a mando.

2) Play around with different muting on the 2 & 4. "Letting it ring" doesn't sound good to me, but there are MANY variations between that the the"Bluegrass Chop" Listen to Will Patton and Don Steirnberg... They don't do Gypsy Rhythm all the time, but have elements of it (and Freddy Green) in their backup playing

3) Use the "Jethro 3 string" chord voicings. They give you a "lower" sound and are easier to control the muting.

4) Steal ideas from guitar.. Check out Denis Chang's YouTube videos (and DVDs - lots of good info in them). The strum patterns work great on mando as well. If you want to put in more work, get Gypsy Rhythm and move the ideas over to mando (the ideas, NOT the actual voicings - on mando they put the "bass" onto the high strings and it sounds too thin). Things like the "Line Cliche" work fine on either the A or E string (one of the only times I use 4 string voicings)

Learn something on Guitar (say a Gypsy Blues). Play around with it, try the simple embelishments, get it in your head. Then try to get a similar (or complementary) sound on the mando.

djangology

Michael Horowitz wrote:

plectroman wrote:

Would it help to have mando-guy just shoot for an accurate 2 & 4?

That could probably work....although I fear if overdone it would make the whole thing sound too much like bluegrass.

Hot Club Sandwich does a really good job of integrating the Mandolin. Perhaps listening to some of their recordings would help your mando player?

dennis

well this is strictly my opinion, but i dont think it should be done because of the register of the mandolin...

the gypsy jazz rhythm is different from other boom chuck styles in that it's generally very dry , bassy and staccato...

if the mandolin were to do the same, it would be way too distracting for this style of music... works fine in bluegrass though...

Again it's really just my opinion, but as far as accompaniment goes, I think the mandolin should be treated like the violin: lay out, or play countermelodies when appropriate...

I've seen violinists try to do the rhythm as well , it 's like putting too much salt .. you end up with rhythm guitar and bass covering the bass to med register... then the fiddle covering the top register, and it's just too much and messy (for this style)

plectroman

Thanks guys...it's great to have your well considered advice. I wish all mandolin and violin players would look at Dennis' post. Soloists generally don't want violin sawing away or some big mandolin chord coming out of nowhere....

delsbrother

So to be clear, Dennis, the David Grisman "Gypsy" recordings with Stephane Grappelli, John Jorgenson, Wrembel, etc. are examples of this "oversalted" sound?

I'm not terribly fond of everything Grisman's done - I don't really like his soloing, for example - but some of that earlier stuff swung hard and IMO sounded nothing like Bluegrass.

As far as emulating other instruments.. It's hard to compete with a roomful (or even a couple) of guitars playing rhythm- there's just no way to be heard without being obnoxious. And it's treacherous to "play tasteful fills" and NOT occasionally produce a "big mandolin chord out of nowhere." I like the violin model a lot; and agree in most cases it's probably the wisest choice. But some of Grisman's most interesting sounds to me are unlike anything a guitarist OR violinist would play. But that's because he's playing a mandolin.

I mean, if someone was trying to play Gj on an oboe, I would think it reasonable for some oboe-sounding riffs to occur, no?

Heretic

We've been working with a first-class mandolin player, who has been favoring his short-scale Weber mandola; not his A style 1916 Gibson mandolin for Django style music. It's early days, but there have been benefits to having him on board. It's actually tightened up our rhythm playing when he's playing rhythm, while his lead-lines are clear and a joyous thing.
Perhaps his lower tuning and larger body size helps.