Gitane D hole question:

JazzDawg

Of course, you know that children's hands are more flexible than adults. It does get a bit more difficult to play without doing a lot of stretching exercises as I get older. 'Old Arthur' sometimes gives folks fits too. So, you ability to play a long scale vs. short scale is something that you just have to work at - or find a way to compensate.

I was worried about long scale vs short scale, having small hands, but as I practice more, I think long scale will be allright, though if I find a 14-fret D-hole short scale that I can afford, I'd get it too. Every guitar I have up to now is short scale, so I'm eager to give the long scale ones a go.

pault86

Hi Keith,

I just went through this frustration.

The only guide I found was on the Setting up the Gypsy Jazz Guitar DVD from http://hotstringsguitar.com/.

Jamie Boss, the luthier who does the video, said hold your fretting hand up in front of you with fingers and thumb stretched as wide apart as possible. Measure the distance from the tip of your thumb to the tip of your pinky. If it is less than 9 inches, you'd probably be more comfortable on a short scale.

My stretch was 8 inches, so I completely ignored this advice and bought a Cigano oval hole. I didn't even wimp out and buy a Dell Arte with 26.4 scale.

I realized I'd gigged more as a bass player than a guitarist, and a short scale bass is still 4 inches longer than a long scale gypsy box.

But Django was what got me. I think a determination to play as well as you are able and the discipline to practice everyday - and (yawn!) crank through the method books will get you where you want to be.

Both the short and long scale gypsy guitars are a leap into the unfamiliar. The short scale has a wide fretboard and a thick neck front to back, the long scale has that long scale, and a thick neck if you get something like a JJ model.

Either way you're going to have to work through it. The high action gives you callouses like a bass player and you've got to build strength to play rhythm for very long. It's more work than jazz comping or playing rock rhythm on a slinky electric. It takes time to build speed with the rest stroke and high action, so a lot of fretboard drills, too.

If you search the posts, though, you'll find guys regularly have eureka moments where it all comes together, so that's encouraging. Seems to take at least 6 months.

The Cigano oval had the advantage of being cheap and having a good neck angle, so you have a lot of lattitude in the height of the bridge for action adjustment. My action is 3mm at 12 on the low E with a 25mm tall bridge. The neck is thinner front to back, and that's a plus.

From what guys say on here the Cigano short scale is basically a 500 so you don't have the neck angle, and the next cheapest option, the Manouche Orchestra, got a really bad review here. If you had the coin to blow, this is probably a great guitar, 14 fret short scale: http://www.****/test.php?catid=5&pid=1658

I'm enjoying my Cigano, and can reach four frets from index to pinky even on frets 1 through 4 so that seems to be enough.

Get the Wegen picks - the Gypsy jazz pick and the button for rhythm - it really helps to have the right picks.

Have fun!

Paul

klaatu

Paul -

Great post and excellent advice. I've got the same DVD but have not gotten as far as the part about measuring the distance of your hand span. Mine is about 8 3/8, if I really stretch. I went back to long scale this past spring, after playing a Dell'Arte 14 fret short scale D hole for about a year. No problems at all. It certainly makes a wider range of guitars available, especially if you want a 14 fret model.

pault86

Thanks, Ben,

Gort beringa nikto to you, too!

Paul

keithdjango

Thanks Paul, others for the tips - my stretch yields 8" + my arms aren't real long either. I just wish I could find a few to play in the cities, but every store I've called came up empty. I do have a Wegen Gypsy pick, Nolan's first book & JJ intro book/DVD, just need the guitar.

pault86

Yeah, having the guitar really makes a difference!

Short arms won't hurt you. My Cigano is actually shorter overall than my Hofner Very Thin Classic, a 25.5 scale. It is probably shorter than all my guitars, but those two are sitting right here side by side so I can see easily. It surprised me.

And since you want to pick back of the sound hole, you don't need much arm reach to get there. Another surprising thing. The edge of the guitar hits my forearm, it does not go all the way to my elbow.

You probably know but Saga has a dealer search page here: http://www.sagamusic.com/how_to_order.asp

There's no shame in getting a short scale. If I'd been willing to spend the money for a nice guitar I'd have gone that way.

But for me it was between the Ciganos, because I don't make my living playing - in fact, I don't play out anymore, the picture in my avatar is from 1977. Guitar is just a hobby and I just want to learn the Gypsy style.

Having the right neck angle was important to me, and I was surprised at the pros that were playing out and recording with Ciganos. The Cigano oval was obviously value for money so I went that way.

But saying that, have you seen Joscho Stephan playing Goregantuan's Cigano short scale? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXhynVqy9_I

He's the only guy without an amp and he sure cuts through.

Which brings us back to the main point. Most of the sound is going to be in you, so if you are determined to play either type of guitar will work for you.

I watched guitars on ebay and the Ciganos don't show up much and sell quickly, so you could probably try both without losing much money.

To me, having a luthier like Josh here at Djangobooks level the frets and craft a bridge was very, very, very important. I would not consider buying from somewhere else because of that. It makes certain that everything will be right, especially the intonation. But you probably would not get all the money spent for set up back if you sold the guitar.

That's all I can give you, Keith. Being 5 foot 6 with the same size hands, I feel confident saying you will be able to play either guitar, and you will be able to play either guitar well if you are determined to do it.

Oh, I had strap buttons put on my guitar so I could hold it classical style. I don't play with the box on the right hip.

Paul

lemanouchecbien

pault86 wrote:

But saying that, have you seen Joscho Stephan playing Goregantuan's Cigano short scale? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXhynVqy9_I

He's the only guy without an amp and he sure cuts through.

HOLY CRAP !

pault86

Yeah, for that matter check out Tom himself! Nothing wrong with a short scale, and Tom is really a performer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDvMxIg2fvw&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkkpQWe2b5s&feature=channel

I'd pay money to see him, hope he makes it really big if he wants to go tht way.

Paul

MichaelHorowitz

Joscho is playing great in that clip and it's a perfect example of how good technique is really the only thing that matters in the end.

But, it's worth mentioning he's playing LOUD types of ideas...octaves, syncopated chordal rhythmic tricks, etc. And when he is playing single note lines he's playing the sort of bread and butter Gypsy licks that you can really hammer out Moreno/Tchavolo style. Pretty much any guitar will project under those conditions. But if you're playing more subtle, nimble sorts of lines or if you're playing a ballad and want lots of whole notes with the sustain, then you'll really notice how much better a long scale guitar does. And of course, if you play all the LOUD sorts of ideas on a long scale guitar, they project even better then you hear in the video. It's all relative....he's a great player and knows how to adapt which is what we all need to do under those circumstances. A better guitar just gives you more flexibility....it's not like an inferior guitar means the show is over. You just deal with it like Joscho is doing...

'm

pault86

Aha!

That is very cool to know, Mike, thanks!

Paul