Production

Simonius

Hey guys! I was thinking about something and I'd like to hear your opinion.

For me, in gipsy jazz (although it kinda goes for all music), the production, is the thing that makes or breaks a record. The mics used, the mixing and equalizing, the compressing, the reverb, you know.

For example, I think Jimmy Rosenberg's Trio album is really great. It sounds crisp, clear, dry, yet very warm and ambient.

But the Rosenberg Trio's Roots album (not a very good example because it also has a clarinet, but still), I rarely listen to it. It sounds overproduced, very compressed and too in-your-face, it has a whole lot of bass, very boomy, and a lot of reverb and stuff. There's a lot of albums like this.

I was thinking of this when I was looking at Dorado's new album:

http://www.djangostation.com/Family,1165.html

The tracklist looked great, the idea for the album sounded great, and I love Dorado but I listen to the sample and.. ofcourse this isn't a very high quality sample, but the solo guitar is like unnaturally warm, loud and powerful and it sounds like it's in a huge hall, whereas the rhythm guitar is really thin and on the background. And I decided I'm not going to buy the album because of that.

And if these guys were sitting in front of me with just their acoustic instruments, I would have most likely enjoyed them just as much. And again, this is true for all music, but especially in gipsy jazz because it's really acoustic music, and that ambience is hard to catch on a record. And it appears to be very tempting to use all the fancy equipment and tools a studio has nowadays.

pinkgary

Are you a sound engineer, by any chance?

I don't think most people would not listen to an album based on the reverb, or too much valve compression. It might make them think twice about what guitars they're playing, or think, i'm not gonna make those mistakes when i record, but if the playings good, the rest is arbitrary.

Lets face it, Roots has still got better production values than most Django recordings, I bet it doesn't stop you listening to them.

lemanouchecbien

Well, a lot of reverb and strong bass are the basis of what we call "the root" manouche sound.
And really that does not come from the recording style but rather on their style. This is how they play their instrument for real ! I know I am in Paris a lot. It is not a question of production at all.
The only exception to have a root sound and playing very dry is Tchavolo. 8)
Man, did you never listen to Musik Deutscher Zigeuner ?
http://www.djangostation.com/Musik-Deut ... 20Zigeuner
or Les Manouches de Saint-Ouen : Rare recordings of gypsy musics ?
http://www.djangostation.com/Les-Manouc ... e,827.html

dennis

gypsies in general are VERY fond of reverb...

Dr. Hall

I understand Simon's aesthetic point of view here. I prefer the under-produced to over-produced recordings. Tchavolo's Miri Familia cd or the Selmer 607 cd or Gonzalo's latest cd are all nice without the reverb. You can hear the instruments sort of as they would sound if you were there in the room with those guys. That's good recording technique. Kudos to the engineers.

I'm not a fan of reverb. Reverb, especially the fake/digital kind addded to too many recordings, sound like crap in my opinion. If that makes me non-gypsy, well I'm not really a gypsy anyway, and my personal taste is for low-tech recordings that sound truer to the instruments. Acoustic instruments don't have that digital reverb naturally. I've never heard an acoustic instrument in any room really that has the kind of reverb that some recordings have. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what lemanouchecbien is talking about here. The room may have a certain ambience, true enough, but when I hear heavy digital reverb on a recording it annoys me too.

I do agree with Pink Gary, however, that though I don't like the sound quality of a recording (because of reverb or whatnot) I'm more inclined to listen to the playing, appreciate it, and learn what I can from that. Django's recordings (sans reverb and sans any real high-tech production) are a perfect example of this. They sound pretty poor as far as modern production standards are concerned (though I like the lack of digital reverb!), but what he's playing is still worth listening to.
-Stefan

lemanouchecbien

Well you are maybe no gypsy but if you banned the recordings with heavy reverb you are simply banning the best gypsy recordings.
I could not stand the reverb before also but I got use to it. I find it charming now

Jazzaferri

IMO Gypsy like Flamenco is best served up live. I prefer a well done live recording to any of the studio productions. There is a magic there that I find really compelling.

As a by-product live recordings, if well mic'd, are usually not overproduced.

Dr. Hall

No one said anything about banning recordings with reverb. Yikes, that's a scary thought! Not sure where anyone would get that idea from this thread. Did Simonius suggest it? Did I? Perish the thought. Some of us just prefer less reverb and more of a natural acoustic sound. It's personal taste and aesthetics we're talking about, not police action or censorship. Dear, dear. I listen to it all and tolerate the reverb when the playing is good. Jazzaferri, I agree with you that live recordings can be nicely done. I love the Rosenberg Trio at Samois recording for instance, or the Gary Potter at leQ cd. Very tasty stuff indeed.

My tastes lean toward the natural sound of the instruments and the dynamics that an all acoustic group are capable of producing. My group have been playing mostly acoustic gigs for the past year. Amplification of any sort (live or studio processing) alters the sound of the instruments (often negatively in my experience), and my group have just built up our muscles to the point where we can play without amps a lot of the time. We can really hear our instruments instead of some electrically processed signal. Our audiences have been appreciative so far. They don't have to talk as loud to one another, and, in turn, we don't have to ampify, and I have been leaving gigs without my ears ringing.
-Stefan