Bebop scale or not?

CalebFSU

Hey everyone hopefully some one who knows the answer to this will read this. As a Jazz student I am an admitted music theory dork and I had a question that hopefully will generate some good discussion. In re-reading Michaels lesson on Gypsy theory (the first one) and Michael mentions the bebop scale which I have always wondered about. In the Lesson Michael explains it as a Major scale with a passing tone between the 5th and 6th scale degrees. That consequently is also how it is described in Mark Levines Jazz theory book, but the other day in my guitar lesson at school My guitar professor was working with me on improvising over "On Green Dolphin Street" and the subject of Bebop scales came up and he explained it as a Major scale with a b7-7-8(1). He said it gave the major scale a dominant sound and is good to play over a dominant chord. Michael(or any of you other theory minded cats) can you help me? which is which?

dennis

a bebop scale is just a diatonic scale with a passing tone to make sure the important chord factors end on a strong beat... therefore ...it can be between any whole step in a diatonic scale

from a purely academic (or at the very least the one used at berklee) standpoint, michael's answer is the correct one... bebop scale is generally the major scale with #5/b6

the one your teacher referred to is the Mixolydian scale with passing tone.... and that is why it obviously works well with dominant harmonies...

MichaelHorowitz

dennis wrote:

the one your teacher referred to is the Mixolydian scale with passing tone.... and that is why it obviously works well with dominant harmonies...

Yes...the mixolydian bebop. I talk about that one in my Gypsy Theory lesson as well. "bebop scale" is a misnomer because musicians were doing this back to Louis Armstrong. Django defintily was aware of this principle.

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pallopenna

It's been a long while since I've looked at this stuff, but check out David Baker's books. I believe that he has "bebop" scales for major, mixolydian, and possibly minor scales, corroborating what Dennis and Michael say. I also believe that, though this is mis-named, it's refered to as a bebop scale because -like much else in bebop - it was a favorite device of Charlie Parker (and Dizzy, Bud Powell, etc.).

CalebFSU

Thanks Dennis and Michael that really clears it up!

djangology

hey Dennis or anyone else... is it possible to post a example of a gypsy jazz style bebop example run ? you were posting some images of some stuff to play over Daphne... can you maybe show an example of a bebop pattern over Daphne?

dennis

what do you meanby bebop? the passing tone concept or the style itself? for the latter, it would be another style on its own, not necessarily inappropriate, but too much could be said and i m not an expert on it beyond the theory, listening to it and faking it every now and then at jam sessions.

but if you just mean the passing tone concept, it's just adding chromaticism between notes of the scale... that very last paulus schafer lick in daphne makes use of that concept... (A A#

i'll post other examples eventually

Polkat

Just so I'll get a better understanding of this, in Martin Norgaard's book 'Jazz Fiddle Wizard' (yes, I'm a fiddler) he talks about the Dominant Bebop Scale as being the mixolidian scale with the added note as a sharped 7th (7, #7, 8) rather then in CalebFSU's post (b7, 7, 8).

Are, in effect, both of these correct, as we're only talking about a passing tone here?

nwilkins

That is impossible, because #7 and 8 are exactly the same note. The mixolydian scale has a flatted 7, not a major 7, so perhaps the book means you should sharp the 7th note of the mode, making it b7, 7, 8.

stubla

nwilkins wrote:

That is impossible, because #7 and 8 are exactly the same note. The mixolydian scale has a flatted 7, not a major 7, so perhaps the book means you should sharp the 7th note of the mode, making it b7, 7, 8.

These are all just names we give to sounds.
As Stan Getz said "I'm into moods not modes"
Stu

nwilkins

if only he'd been into clean living too