Rattle down low - Do I need a new nut?

constantine

hi

I am getting some rattle on the open low E, and on the 1st and 2nd frets.
The neck is straight and action at 3mm. Could the nut slots be toolow?
Whats the proper height of the action at the first fret?

thanks!!

Jazzaferri

Is this new to the guitar or is this a new guitar or........???

Bob Holo

Depends on what you mean by rattle, but it doesn't sound likely. There is no real "nut" on these guitars. If the slots are too deep - there's no real penalty other than perhaps sticky tuning if the slots are also too narrow because the zero fret is the terminus for the string. If the slots are too high then you'll get a dull or zither-like sound because the zero fret isn't securely terminating the string. If the slots are worn you're more likely to experience side-to-side slippage of the strings in the first few frets when you bend & such... causing odd string spacings or causing you to inadvertently pull the E strings off the edge of the fingerboard & etc...

Buzz down low means that either the fret that is one or two in front of the buzzy fret is high, or the frets about 12 frets up from the buzzy fret are high... in other words, about half way to the bridge from the buzzy fret which is the apex of the string's arc when played at that fret. So, 12+2=14 which not coincidentally is the edge of the body... the infamous body hump manifests itself often in buzzy 1st & 2nd frets on the low E string.

constantine

There is no zero fret, its a 2003 Dupont Nomade. But yes, it sounds like a fret issue. thanks Bob.

Tele295

I get a little rattle in that area whenever I put new strings on. It goes away after a day or two

Jeff Moore

I want to second what Bob Holo said. The geometry is pretty straightforward and his explaination is the most likely to describe your problem. Though you said your neck is straight, the low action "3mm" is such that you probably can't visually resolve the 3rd or 4th fret being high.
If you play every note on your low E with the same force, you'll find some places that buzz sooner than the rest. The fret just 1 or 2 above the place where it buzzes is a couple thousands of and inch high.
The neck or at least the frets aren't really straight, just straight to the human eye.

An 18" straight edge (a decent steel one) laid between the 5th and 6th string, against every fret will reveal the actual "levelness" of your frets. You have to get the light just right and look where the straight edge touches each fret.
Its easier to slide paper (regular copy paper is best) between the straight edge and all the frets.
The frets actually touching the straight edge won't let the paper pass where straight edge and fret touches.

If you do this trick with with the straight edge, you'll get a snapshot of the real "levelness" of all the frets. Take into account that their may be relief (bowing, convex bowing) of the neck that is usually built into the neck and or adjusted into the neck with the truss rod.

Like previous posts said: The "nut" isn't a nut at all, but a string guide or string tree. It can't be to low cause you want the string to "break" (bend) over the 0 fret, not the "nut". The 0 frets are usually taller than all the other frets. This is something I always fix. It should be the same height as all the other frets, otherwise the notes (especially on the first few frets) are too tough to play compared with the rest of the neck.

If your 0 fret is higher than the rest, the open strings won't rattle at all. Just when you start fretting will you notice buzzes. This is a separate problem.

Also, you reduce, but never eliminate the "hump" where neck meets body, by keeping the humidity between 40-55. If its dry where your guitar lives, it'll wreck your set up in several ways, but especially that hump.

Jazzaferri

Constantine

AS your guitar (like mine) has no zero fret the nut could be too low or you could have a couple of frets that haven't bee quite seated or have popped a bit with moisture change.

Is the neck truly straight with no relief???? All my guitars have a very gentle curve to the neck giving the necessary relief between frets and strings. The fact that it buzzes on the open E is material IMO

First off check to see if the neck is really truly straight or does it have a gentle relief curve.

Second. push down on the E string at the 1st fret and the top fret 22 or whatever you have and note the clearance on each fret from 2 on up. Depending on your experience and your eye it might help to have someone hold the string while you look from the side.

Report the results back if you will. I suspect that you wont have any relief on F2 or very very little.

You can also check the relief on the 1st string the same way and compare.

BluesBop Harry

I too have a Nomade (No zero fret) and I replaced the nut with a homemade one made of bone... try putting a thin paper (business card) shim under the bass side of your nut and see if the buzz goes away. If so get a custom nut or make one yourself with the new height.

Jeff Moore

I've been aware of the incapacity of owners of fine guitars to set them up well.
I bought a fine US made guitar recently that is amazing. It was so badly set up that the owner could not have even known what it was capable of. It was also undervalued.

JG guitars (and many others) do not reach there potential until the set up is near perfect. The difference between pretty good and correct is substantial, and you can't tell that difference with your eyeballs. Its in the small thousands of an inch.

Until recently I did my own crude set ups. Crude, meaning I still can't dress frets very well. Set up meaning the frets are absolutely level within a thousanth or so. The difference in playability is easy to surmise. The musical difference is what is missing in guitar consciousness and much harder to know unless you take a guitar and compare pre set up and post set up.

I've done this now with some great guitars (but the benefits are there with any guitar) and I suspect that because people rarely do it themselves, and rarely pay to get good set ups, that they just put up with the flaws and ask "What is this rattle and buzz about".

You need a straight edge to find out what you've got, and to develop the technique to fix it, or money to pay someone who has the technique. I don't think there's any alternative.

Even people I would think should know better say "This guitar just plays better than this one" or "This one just feels right". In all cases, the way a guitar feels is just geometry. The width and thickness of necks can be altered if you want it bad enough, but level frets are critical just to maximize or even know the best sound of the guitar you've got.

Any guitar can play identically to any other guitar of the same string length. There are no guitars that play better than others intrinsically.

It's something you oughta come to grips with if your gonna play acoustic guitar for hours a day.

Strong young hands will buy you time overcoming defective set ups, but the sound won't reach its peak till the frets are level. Given the amount of time necessary to even play passably in this style, and the dependence on tone to put this music across, I'm suprised how few people set their guitars up and suspect that a lot of guitars change hands needlessly because there slightly off or even terribly set up. They typically don't come from the factory well set up either, whether its Asian or French. Also, setups don't improve with age or cost of guitar.

Buy a straight edge and begin to visualize level frets! Its not easy to get, there's quite a few bucks or another learned skill set between now and your well set up guitar, but I think its necessary to deal with if your gonna play and sound at your peak.

MichaelHorowitz

AMEN!

David F.

What kind of file does one use for frets? I'm a bicycle mechanic who also builds some custom steel frames, so I have straight edges and a collection of fine, second cut, and coarse 4, 6, 8, and 10 inch files. I can visualize what levelling frets means--but how does a levelling of frets balance out against relief in the fretboard?