Beginner Question: Daphné

Musette

I wonder how do you all experienced gypsy jazzers improvise over tunes like Daphné, where most of the chords last 2 beats.
For the A part you play:
II:D/IBm/IG/IA7/ID/ID9/IG# º/ID/IA7/ID/IA7/:II

So, how do you improvise over that?, i know most guitar players improvise what they hear in their heads, but if you wanted to improvise for studying your arpeggios, do you improvise playing arpeggios for each chord? Because i find it hard to think of arpeggios when the chords are changing very fast. I find it very hard to be able to think "now i'll play D 6/9, and now Bm7"all that in just 1 measure, etc.
Do you use, arpeggios, or scales or what?

Thanks.

BluesBop Harry

Yes, play what you hear in your head is right, the problem is what to hear.

"Rhythm changes" progressions (Daphne, Micro, swing42, etc) can be very challenging to improvise over, but lots of fun!
There are many different approaches. A bebop player would probably play each chord, lots of players like to blow blues stuff over bars 5-8.
Listen to Django play. He would often group the I and vi chords together as they are so closely related, same thing with the ii and V.
So try playing a Bm arp (or Bm7) over the first two chords: D6= D F# A B Bm7= B D F# A.
See, They are the same!!
I play Em7 / A7 on the next bar so that's your basic ii- V. Again you can just play off the V or just the ii.
Or alter the V and play off it's tritone.
You can play Gm over the ii-V, Django loved to do that.
All that first part is all I-VI-II-V
As a beggining exercise try playing Bm- Gm one bar each.
The trick is to be melodic while following the guide tones or even better, get to know the changes until they are second nature, then forget them.
For the next four bars the approach is similar...

You live in Mexico city, right?
Come down to my place and we'll do a lesson.

Musette

"know the changes until they are second nature, then forget them", i think Coltrane said that, am I right?
Anyway, that's exactly what i'am aiming for.
Today this mornig before i read your post i noticed that simmilitude between the D6 and the Bm apreggios, so i started to improvise with just D6 (or Bm) over the first measure, then i started with G6 on the second measure and it sounded ok because it is also related to the ii (Em7= E G B D)
(G6 = G B D E) , and i guess i could play A7 for the whole bar(A7= A C# E G) or two beats after i played the G6 for the previous two beats.
But would it sound ok if i played a Bbdim7 on the second bar as a sub for the A7, or would it mess everythig up because of the Em7?
Then for the ID6/ID9/I i just play D6/9 right and maybe D#dim7 or D6/9 for two beats and then maybe two beats of G#7 (tritone substitution) or maybe two beats of D6/9 and two beats of Am6 because it shares notes with the D9 :
Am6 = A C E F#
D9 = D E F# A
Please try to correct every mistake i possibly made here.

But what could i play with the IG69/IG#dim7/ID69/IA7/ID69/IA7/I ???

The B section is almost identical but a half step above..so all this is ok for the Bridge right?

BluesBop Harry wrote:

As a beggining exercise try playing Bm- Gm one bar each.

Did you mean Bm-G Major and not Gm? or is there something i'm not understanding.
Sorry but i'm not so good with theory.

BluesBop Harry wrote:

You live in Mexico city, right?
Come down to my place and we'll do a lesson.

Yes i do and i really want to go there and meet you, you really seem to know this stuff really well and your playing sounds great, and it would be great to have someone to jam with, even if i'm not at their level, cause i don't know anybody that likes manouche here in Mexico City.
But like a week ago, i ordered my Dupont Nomade (now i'm saving for Denis Chang's DVDs, i wish i could find some used ones for sale) from Maurice's workshop and they said it'll be ready at the end of August, so i think it would be better to wait until then because in the meantime i've been practicing with my electric solid body guitar, so, i think it would be better to start lessons with the proper guitar.
I already have your phone number, so, i'm pretty sure you'll be hearing from me soon.
Thanks

BluesBop Harry

But would it sound ok if i played a Bbdim7 on the second bar as a sub for the A7, or would it mess everythig up because of the Em7?
Then for the ID6/ID9/I i just play D6/9 right and maybe D#dim7 or D6/9 for two beats and then maybe two beats of G#7 (tritone substitution) or maybe two beats of D6/9 and two beats of Am6 because it shares notes with the D9 :
Am6 = A C E F#
D9 = D E F# A
Please try to correct every mistake i possibly made here.

You can use a lot of different arps over both chords, especially over the dominant section (A7 or Em-A7). It all depends on which notes you want to highlight. 3rds and 7ths are good choices to look for as they define the quality of the chords. 5ths, 9ths, 11ths and 13ths are color notes. Roots are your ground.

Dominant chords accept more tension. In general a V7 that resolves to minor would be naturally altered and one that goes to major would have the natural extensions but you can play with that and swap one for the other. Django liked to play the natural 9 and sometimes 13 over the E7 in minor swing, for example.
So yes Bb diminished works over A7, also try Em6, Eb, Bbm.
The thing is, if your phrasing's strong enough you can get away with pretty much everything, your ear will accept those harmonic imperfections.
For an example of that try D diminished over all four chords.
I don't use G major too much over the ii-v but it can work

But what could i play with the IG69/IG#dim7/ID69/IA7/ID69/IA7/I ???

That part also gives many options. Try Em- G#dim- for the beginning then go back with a I-VI-II-V turnaround.
As I said earlier you can try playing some blues licks over that as well.
Better yet transcribe a few examples from Django and use that!

BluesBop Harry wrote:

As a beggining exercise try playing Bm- Gm one bar each.

Did you mean Bm-G Major and not Gm? or is there something i'm not understanding.

I meant Gm or Gm6. It's like "Night and day", take the ii-V from the minor key and use it in major (in this case we're only using the IIm7b5)
It's called a "backdoor progression". Try it and you'll hear it works.
This one is a bit harder but you can go D-Eb one bar each too.

What I meant with the "forget the changes" quote (Attributed to Bird BTW) was that you don't have to change gears and scales or arps for every chord, you should know each one of your options, but in the end you can play more with melodies even if some notes are "wrong". Try playing blues licks over the whole progression, use D major scale for the whole progression, play one note for the whole progression, etc.
Knowing the real chords lets you get out and explore having a safe "net" to come back to and land on your feet.


Congrats on the Dupont and you're welcome for lessons any time you want it's just that it's a lot easier to explain this stuff in person, in Spanish and with a guitar in hand!

PS I transcribed Django 1949 solo for "Swing 42" about five years ago(Wow! It's been a while...) it's posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=902

There are some cool ways to play over I-VI-II-V there. You can clearly see he's not following changes or at least not only doing that... he's playing as if he's singing.

BluesBop Harry

BluesBop Harry wrote:

I meant Gm or Gm6. It's like "Night and day", take the ii-V from the minor key and use it in major (in this case we're only using the IIm7b5)
It's called a "backdoor progression". Try it and you'll hear it works.

Maybe that's not clear enough... I'm thinking of the IIm7b5 (Em7b5) and the IVm6 (Gm6) as the same thing because they share the same notes. I'm using that sound over the V7 implying a b9 sound.
I think of Tonic, subdominant and dominant regions and to me a II-V is mostly about the V which can be altered or not according to taste more than harmonic function.
Hope that makes it easier to grasp...
Anyway that IVm over the V7 is a very cool sound that was used a lot during the swing era.

Musette

BluesBop Harry wrote:

I meant Gm or Gm6. It's like "Night and day", take the ii-V from the minor key and use it in major (in this case we're only using the IIm7b5)
It's called a "backdoor progression".

Wow, that's new to me but i'll try to become more familiar with that sound by practicing it.

BluesBop Harry wrote:

it's just that it's a lot easier to explain this stuff in person, in Spanish and with a guitar in hand!

Agree!

Thanks for all the info , it really helped.
Now i'll go try some of those ideas.

Lango-Django

Many thanks to Harry for his expert advice... I'm definitely going to try some of those interesting ideas on Daphne!

Will Wilson
Niagara-On-The-Lake, ON

Lango-Django

Thanks for that nice transcription, Blues Bop Harry, and for those of us who ain't so big on the note-readin', here's the solo as Django recorded it.



Will

Lango-Django

Harry, I've just started working through your transcription, and that very first bar still gets me... it just sounds "so Django"!

I would never have thought of playing a Bb note over a C6 chord, but Django makes it sound so perfect, indeed "logical" would seem to be the correct word.

Harry, I'm trying to look behind the notes to see Django's mind at work... my ultimate intention is not to copy his stuff, but to learn to play in his tradition to the best of my ability.

So I ask you this question: do you think Django was thinking of that first-bar passage as playing a C9 chord over the C6/Am7, or did that just sort of happen together by accident?

Same question in bar 3, where he uses an Eb note and what seems to be an F7 arp over the C6/Am7.

Harry (and Jazzaferri and other advanced players here) I ask your guidance on this chord-substitution thing, which is still real new to me...

Thanks,

Will

seeirwin

Django would often play pentatonic licks over rhythm changes and blues-based progressions. I haven't seen the transcription you're talking about, but I am guessing that a pentatonic phrase is what is going on. Bireli does a ton of that, too. As to *why* the pentatonic sounds so good even though the notes don't match up, it's still hotly debated among music theorists.

Lango-Django

Harrry, I'm excited because I can finally play the whole of your transcription of "Swing 42" (1949 version)... well, I'm not quite up to Django's speed yet, but I'm at about 90% and getting closer every day! The end of the bridge is what seems to tie my fingers in knots, though I've practised that passage until my wife is threatening divorce!

So, thanks a lot for your transcription, Harry... I admit to some slight deviations when my ears heard something a little different than yours, but just having it gave me the confidence to get started on this chorus, which to me is one of Django's all-time greatest... and scariest!

God, learning this style is a lot of hard work, n'est-ce pas? Maybe it'll get easier soon?

Anyway, muchos gracias, muchacho!


Will