Jean Barault - Neck?

seanray

I'm currently trying to figure out more about Selmer style guitars and one question I haven't found an answer to yet is in regards to the two piece style neck/headstock (see photos).

The photos I've attached are of Jean Barault's work but I've seen other guitars that employ this feature. My questions are:

1. Did original Selmers have this?
2. Do guitars that have this feature also have truss rods?
3. Are there other advantages/disadvantages to this feature?

Another feature that I notice on almost all Selmer style guitars is the two piece heel. In the world of flat top guitars this is more common on cheaper varieties. Clearly this in not the case in the GJ world.

Thanks,
Sean

Michael Bauer

I'm sure there are others who know more about this than I do, but my understanding is that Selmers always had slotted head stocks until the late ones. My Selmer (#862, Feb. 1951) has a single piece rosewood neck (it does have a two piece heel) without a slotted headstock. I believe that all Selmer Modeles Jazz had a non adjustable aluminum rod in the neck for support, but not a truss rod as we think of them. I'm not certain if the rosewood neck models even have that, and one guy who might know, Bob Holo, is out of circulation right now playing the mad scientist in his guitar lab. Rodrigo Shopis looked at mine, and I'll ask him if he knows.

I don't have the Charle book with me at the moment, but I do know that for the last couple of years all Selmers were made by Pierre Roulot, who was the last man standing in the guitar shop. His guitars have a much steeper pliage on the top. Mine still has perfect geometry and has never needed a neck reset, and I use a Dupont "0" bridge on it. If you go to a #1 bridge, the action is so high that only my friend Benny Roberton can stand it.

I don't think there are advantages/disadvantages, other than it might have made it easier to fit the aluminum rod perfectly and then cap it off by inserting the slotted headstock. the only other thing I can think of is that two pieces of wood are usually stronger than one, so maybe it was deemed to add strength to the neck. I'll ask Rodrigo that as well.

andreas

This is what AJL Guitars write on their webpage (http://www.ajl-guitars.com/) when you press the link/button where it says "original style neck joint on Gypsygutars" (including spelling misstake):

Walnut Selmer necks had a very clever, but complex glue joint close to zero-fret to joint headstock and straight part of the neck. Very few gypsyguitar luthiers make that glue joint, but It actually affects the tone by adding strength to that area. Increased stiffness on neck adds overall volume, by leading as much of the vibration to the body of the guitar as possible.

New AJL Selmer and Maccaferri models all have this original glue joint.

Craig Bumgarner

Where the neck meets the head stock is a weak point in guitars and failures in this area are amongst the most common. The head angles down from the neck and if cut from one piece of straight grained wood, the grain runs out in the transition to the head stock. String tension is trying to lift the head up and this works against the short grain.

There are a number of ways to deal with this. One is the head plates and laminates glued to the upper and sometimes the lower faces of the head stock as well. As the woods used are often contrasting and pretty, in Selmers usually ebony, we think of this as decoration, but like all of the common decorations on a guitar, form follows function. (Bindings protect edges, rosettes reinforce the sound hole, etc.) A friend of mine's guitar fell over at a gig and broke clean through at this spot, only he didn't know it at the time and played the night out with it. What was holding it together was the head plate only !!!!

The modern method of head joint is to glue the head to the underside of the neck before shaping and then reinforce the joint with a head plate. If well done with the right glue, this is considered a strong and successful method.

For better or worse, the Henri Selmer Co. did things their own way and their unique head joint is a good example. To me, the Selmer head to neck joint is crazy. Expensive to make, a complex fit yet relies on a very good fit to work at all, has only a small amount of joint wood parallel to the grain and a considerable amount of butted end grain joint. To me, the only thing really holding it together is the fingerboard which overlaps the joint. That being said, I have never heard that they are a problem, so what do I know?

I won't argue that AJL is wrong, but personally, I don't see why the Selmer head joint stiffens this area any more than any other good joint. Can anyone explain this?

Craig

klaatu

I don't know what year this is from, but in this plan for a Selmer oval hole, you can plainly see the joint design for the headstock.

Craig Bumgarner

klaatu wrote:

I don't know what year this is from

Edit...... As SteveG says: #807 in 1949.

CB

Michael Bauer

Benny, I have this drawing at home and it's one of the 700 series, but I can't remember the exact number (Can tell you tonight, though.). I think Michael Collins did the blueprint drawings. Roulot must have switched to the single piece rosewood necks not too long after this one was made. Selmers 862 and 863 both sport rosewood necks, which are BTW, really lovely to play.

klaatu

You're right, Michael, I got this off Michael Collins' web site a while back.

BTW, I'm looking at the neck of my Shopis D'Artagnan, and there appears to be a seam across the back of the neck, so perhaps Rodrigo builds his with the joint as well?

Craig Bumgarner

My guess is the Selmer Company, being interested in production saw the head and neck as two separate manufacturing processes, easier if kept separate until the last moment. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is why they were willing to go this route in spite of the complexity of the joint. I suspect they had it pretty well jigged up so it could be replicated easily enough. And, the machinery set up could be used for all the guitars. But still, one wonders.

It is probably worth mentioning that no one, expect Selmer replicators, build a neck joint like this, so the jury is clearly against it. Then again, nothing sounds quite a Selmer does it?

Craig

SteveG

The drawing that's been posted is of Selmer 807, done by Patrick Alexandre/Francois Charle, copyright Nov.21, 2001. It's sold in quite a few different places, including on Micchael Collin's site. The drawing that Michael did is of a Favino, and that is a different plan. This guitar(807) was shipped in 1949.

The 12-fret necks had 12mm x 2mm reinforcing plates that were drilled to lighten them up.. 4-string guitars had 2 plates, and the wider necks had either 3 or 4 plates. The 14-fret necks did not have these reinforcing plates.

The Rosewood necks were introduced around 1952. The Maple and Rosewood necks did not have that joint, being fashioned from a single piece with only the heel glued on. Most Maple headstocks were not slotted for tuners, but one that sold a few months ago that was maple was also slotted for tuners.

The photo in the first post does not show what the interior of the joint looks like - Selmers had a more bullet-shaped tenon that was flat on the one side.

The Charles book is a great source of information.

cheers

Michael Bauer

Steve--

I can assure you the rosewood necks were earlier than 1952. My Selmer 862 was shipped on February 9, 1951, and it already had the rosewood neck, as did Selmer 863, which was shipped 19 days later. So Roulot was already working on those guitars by late 1950. The switch likely came in the early to mid 800's.

Thanks so much for clearing up the source of the drawing. My Charle book is at home and I am not, so I was misremembering both the number and the artist.

Michael