Possible extremely dumb question

Fingers

Hi all.......I have been away for a very long time. Not that I was ever here much to begin with, but I like this place and Michael if I might say so, you are a super chap to deal with.

No such thing as a dumb question huh? :oops:

Would it be an extremely bad idea to apply nitrocellulose lacquer to an "unfinished" GJ guitar body? For example......I have a Gigano GJ-10 that is "unfinished", in that there is no lacquer applied and I thought about trying this, once I had upgraded to a top shelf guitar of course.

While I am sure it would make the guitar look much nicer, I was curious what might happen to the tone after the application of several coats of a quality nitrocellulose lacquer? I don't see many top shelf models that are not finished and highly polished etc.

I suppose there might be some sort of oil applied that could interfere with the application of the lacquer.That would be unfortunate to spray it only to find it does not dry or has imperfections of some sort, the lacquer starts to bubble or lift. Also, I don't know if acoustic guitar bodies are typically finished with the lacquer before the neck is set in place....... meaning that the area underneath the top end of the fretboard, where it lays on the body, will also have the finish. Or if they are just sprayed once assembled, with careful masking used for the fretboard, bridge and neck edges. Some more research is clearly needed on my part, I just wanted to get the main question out the way first.


Has anyone ever tried doing this? Any thoughts on what it might do to the tone?

If I did it I would likely only attempt having the body and top face of the headstock sprayed, not the back of the neck, although I am open to trying that too.

I realize this is an entry level guitar, an economy model so to speak. However, it does have a pretty good tone to my ear though and it plays quite well actually, considering the extremely affordable price. I had mine set up by Josh and one of his bridges fitted......so I would not want to totally ruin it as I guess once a better guitar is on hand, it could serve as a backup.

It sure would look much prettier though.

Any thoughts?

Shawn

I would highly recommend this. So long as your guitar is completely unfinished, and by this I mean Cigano's usually have a Polyester or Polyurethane finish, so this absolutely has to be removed beforehand. Poly finish mixes severly dampen the quality of sound, I know this having stripped and refinished a good amount of guitars over the years...it's basically like coating your guitar in thick plastic. So long as your guitar is completely unfinished I say go for it.

I do have one recommendation though before you start working on this project that would give you, in my opinion, the best finish avaliable for the cost of materials. Go to a hardware store and purchase a small can (NOT a spray can) of Shellac...blonde or amber will be your options and it completely depends on what you like, and make sure the can is not over 3 months old. Read up on French Polishing, and apply a thin layer of it to your guitar. French Polishing is not really all that difficult, especially with pre-mixed Shellac, in fact just twist up your French Polishing dobber and dip it in the Shellac and go to town. Let it dry for about 3-5 days (this allows sufficient hardening), and you will probably see fine lines in the finish that you made while you were dragging the cloth all over it. However, this doesn't matter for this finishing method. You won't need to wear protection here, Shellac is completely natural, heck, you can even eat Shellac!

After you have let it dry, go back to the hardware store and purchase a spray can of Deft Lacquer. Deft is pure Nitrocellulose Lacquer once the solvents have evaporated. Spray the guitar until you are happy with the buildup, and then let it dry. Lacquer will dry in "almost" any temperature...I just refinished a Selmer with Deft in 32 degree weather, but took it inside to dry after the smells disappeared...and lacquer will smell...so wear protection when you apply it.

Now comes the hard part. Start sanding it with about 500 grit automotive sandpaper until it is fairly smooth. This will take some time, but just bear through it. Then move to 1000 grit, and finish off with 2000 grit Automotive sandpaper until you have a pretty smooth finish. If you arm isn't very sore by now you've done something wrong .

Anyhow, just take a rag and wipe it down real good. Let it dry for a few more days, and your good to go. You will get the benefits of a French Polish finish (the best finish there is), and the durability of a Nitrocellulose finish...the best of both worlds. Just make sure that both of the finishes remain fairly thin, as you really don't want a heavy finish absorbing the extra sound.

Once I get home from work, I'll take some pictures of a guitar I refinished with this method and post them here.

Fingers

Wow, what an awesome reply. Thanks a ton. I mean, this has just been an idea rattling around in my head.......every time I look at the Cigano I wish it had a nice shiny upscale looking appearance.

But while this has just been a sort of lurking in the shadows sort of idea, now your post leaves me wanting to get going to the hardware store right away. LOL!!!

Thanks. Solid guitar finishing info. I will copy this and save it in my guitar repair folder.

I would love to see your pictures. Do you have a before and after?

So....back to the Cigano. I am not sure exactly what was applied at the factory. Maybe Michael will know?
So when you say

So long as your guitar is completely unfinished I say go for it.

....... do you mean after I have removed whatever they have on there? Also, what should I use to remove this possible poly finish, steel wool or a fine wet or dry paper like a 600-1000 grit? Is it critical that every last drop of the original poly finish is off........does this require actually going into the wood?

I have several cans of Guitar ReRanch nitrocellulose......but they have been sitting for a tad over a year. Some paint too, for an electric guitar body I have put off spraying. Do you think these rattlecans are no good by now?

Would you prefer the Deft over the Guitar Reranch...and you are talking the shiny finish Deft of course, yes?

Thanks again......I never expected such an in depth reply.

I am sorry for all the questions....... you have really got me going now LOL!!

Shawn

Cool man, hope the info helps. Here are a few posts on Djangobooks I made showing a DG-255 I refinished awhile back, the pictures of the really dark orange finish at the beginning are the "before" pictures (just for clarification). The "yellower" finish is the finish I ended up with using this method:

http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8051

I'll upload some other photos of the guitar now...I've refinished it again! Looks even better!

As far as the Deft Lacquer is concerned, use what you like, as this method will work for Gloss or non-gloss. Personally, I prefer finishing in Satin, but then polishing the guitar with the high grit sandpaper until it becomes something between Gloss and Satin...more of a worn look if you will. However, that is just my preference, so if you want gloss then just use that.

PS- Deft Nitrocellulose is great. For the whole operation you'll spend about $10 for the Shellac, $5 for the Lacquer, and maybe another $10 for the Sandpaper. In my estimation $25 for a refinish job (and one of the best in my opinion) is a great price.

Shawn

Fingers wrote:

....... do you mean after I have removed whatever they have on there? Also, what should I use to remove this possible poly finish, steel wool or a fine wet or dry paper like a 600-1000 grit? Is it critical that every last drop of the original poly finish is off........does this require actually going into the wood?

Honestly, if there is a finish on there it will be Polyurethane or Polyester. That is some tough stuff to remove. I can recommend to you how to remove it, but depending how careful and detailed you can be it's up to you. I actually used a Random Orbital Sander...100 grit to get through the poly, then something like 220 or 320 to smooth it out. Then, lightly sand with 500 grit on the bare wood, and start the refinishing. I would utilize this method, as long ago, before I knew what I was doing I sanded a poly top by hand...let's just say that will never happen again...took some 2-3 days of constant sanding to get to the bare wood. With the Orbital Sander...maybe seconds before you are into the wood.

I truely emphasize the "careful" part as well...the back and sides are laminate and you can easily sand off the outer layer of rosewood if your not careful enough.

Fingers

Thanks, I wil spend some time later reading that whole thread...must go in the studio and work now.

Based on your suggestion to read up on French Polishing, I found this....what do you think of it?

I sorta went through it but one thing, I did not see anything about applying a nitrocellulose over the French polishing. I reckon it needs it though yeah, because the French Polishing is such a delicate finish, damages easily?

http://www.milburnguitars.com/frenchpolish.html

They get REALLY into it...... I mean stuff like mixing your own shellac from flakes and alcohol, grain filling with pumice etc etc. It is a cool article though and they are talking high end instruments I think.

So following the guidelines you laid out, can one expect a noticeable difference in the sound? More focused, resonates better, tonal improvements....?

EDIT: Yeah sorry, I ask a lot of questions...easy to miss stuff. In response to the last post on sanding the Poly off........being as it is so transparent, how do you know when you are through it and into either of the woods on the back, sides and front.....without having gone too far? Can you actually see it....see the difference between the coated and non coated wood as the Poly is sanded off?
Thanks again.

constantine

fingers whatever you do, please note that Nitro is highly toxic and can ruin your lungs without the right ventilation, masking, etc...so just be really careful.

crookedpinky

It's not a dumb question but I have to say it seems like a lot of work to get a shiny finish on your Cigano. When you say it is unfinished - do you mean it's totally bare wood or the standard thin matt finish on the Cigano - which is actually great as it's much thinner than otehr Gitanes and Dell Artes.

I recently stripped a Dell Arte Pigalle - took forever loads of elbow grease and paint stripper. I then sealed it with Nitro sandaing sealer and then waxed it. Looks great, very distressed. I also recently stripped an Anastasio and then used Danish Oil to seal and wax to finish. Both took a lot of work but it makes a difference to the sound, especially with a light sealer and then a light finish like wax.

I would suggest that you might actually end up putting a heavier finish on the Cigano if you use French Polish and then Nitro lacquer. If you just want to shine up your Cigano why not try T Cut. Sounds straneg but I tried to buff out a crack in my Dupont Busato Standard - which has a similar Matte finish to the Cigano and - guess what - the bit I worked on is now extremely shiny.

One other thing - applying French polish is not as easy as it looks, practice first and make sure your pad never dries out and hardens.

Whatever you do - good luck and let us know how it goes

Alan

Shawn

crookedpinky wrote:

I would suggest that you might actually end up putting a heavier finish on the Cigano if you use French Polish and then Nitro lacquer.

Let me put it this way...if you know what you're doing you can apply both of these finishes and end up with something almost as thin as French Polish itself. I've come up with a way of getting the Nitrocellulose layer just as thin as the French Polish, if not thinner. It's very difficult to describe how to do this effectively, maybe I'll make a youtube video one of these days to show how it's done.

Fingers

Make that vid Shawn.......LOL....... it'll be a winner. I'm sure there would be a lot of people benefit from it. I for one would be really interested in your technique. I love stuff like that.

That is the good aspect of YouTube...all the tutorials, educational stuff, how to's etc etc. The bad part of YouTube is ......well, I don't need to go into it....we've all seen stuff on there that is just so wrong.Can you imagine how bad it would get if they had no limits on what could be posted?

I love all the musicians who show their stuff on there..... a lot of novices, who know it, people who are terribly bad players and have not come to terms with that yet...... :P and then an astonishing amount of VERY GOOD players. It is amazing how many fine unknown musicians are out there.

Thanks everyone ...it has been very illuminating to me so far and please, keep weighing in; take it off on a tangent-I don't care...all good by me.

Yes, constantine I am very aware of what goes in my body at an older age. In fact at my work I carry my own APR masks in my personal safety kit and tools.... I have one for paint and solvents and another for stuff like asbestos and multi vapors. I have the two so I don't have to fuss changing filters. I also keep another set of these at home and get mad as heck at my wife when she refuses to wear one, while spraying some project or other with a rattlecan.

But thanks for the heads up....it is a good thing to always look out for another's safety. I used to not care what I breathed in or absorbed through my skin......I can't tell you how many brake shoes I cut bevels on the leading edges ...at a bench grinder with no mask on....blowing out brake drums with compressed air surrounded by a cloud of asbestos death particles, using gasoline to wash parts in, contact cleaner.....LOL.....we were uninformed back then. Plus I was a heavy smoker........ not just cigarettes either..... :twisted: All long behind me now...I don't know if all that stuff will still nail me down the road, but I tell you I feel so much better after being away from it all for about 12 years.

crookedpinky wrote:

When you say it is unfinished - do you mean it's totally bare wood or the standard thin matt finish on the Cigano - which is actually great as it's much thinner than other Gitanes and Dell Artes.

crookedpinky, it seems to have a very light finish. More obvious on the sides and the back of the neck than the back or front. The back seems very dull....lacking in luster or sheen.The grain is quite nice...amazing for a "cheap" guitar...sorry Michael....inexpensive. It might come out nicely with a bit of love.

When you say...."which is actually great because it's much thinner...." etc what do you mean that's great? Is it better for the tone...the sound of the guitar to have little to no finish.......or it's great because it is much less work to remove it?

crookedpinky

Definitetly better for the sound. I was amazed at the weight of material I had to remove from both the DellArte and the Anastasio before getting to the bare wood and - particularly with the Anastasio - there was a noticebale improvement in the sound - it was louder with more bottem end and a sweeter top end.

Nitro over French Polish sounds interesting but why not just go for a thin coat of Nitro or does the combination give some sort of special finish ?