Holland - the Limbergers

Ando

What's the history of the whole Holland group? Who are the major families and players, and is there a "Holland" style?

One famous Holland group of long standing is "Waso" (Vivi Limberger, Fapy Lafertin, Koen De Cauter, Michel Verstraeten, and others). I've heard it said by Nick Wilkins that Piotto Limberger and two of his sons, Vivi and Storro, got things started -- but I'm not sure if they just started "Waso," or a slightly larger nexus of gypsy jazz playing, or even the whole second generation of gypsy jazz playing in Holland, period.

The Limberger group still has absolutely inspiring musicians in it: Tcha Limberger immediately comes to mind. Are there others?

Ando

Thanks, Ted, that helps a lot.

Was Henri Pjiotto a multi-instrumentalist? What sort of fellow was he?

I've only heard Wasso Grunholz written about as some sort of mentor. If that's right, whom did he mentor? Has he been recorded? Was the group "Waso" named after him?

The name "Miranda" I've never heard before. Any light on this? It makes me think there may be vast numbers of players and groups -- many more than have gotten on to record, distributed internationally, etc. How big is the current Dutch group of players, really?

Thanks for the father/son relationships in the Rosenbergs. The whole topic of geneology can be daunting to explore, and these folks may be cagey about it all for excellent historical reasons.

Where do the Rosenbergs live? Are they sedentary?

I think Vivi's familiy lives in Sas van Gent. Googling and mapping it reveals some info and a few pictures. I love the early Waso, too, but the current Waso Quartet is wonderful in a new way. Tcha and Koen are cultivating dissonance more than Koen and Fapy did, and the repertoire is expanding to cover interesting by-ways like Zez Confrey's "Stumbling" and late Django ("Porto Cabello"). Tcha is a freaking whiz at everything. I've transcribed some of his playing, "September Song" in particular, and am constantly amazed. He and Koen are kindred spirits, I think.

Is Vivi still playing?

Cheers,
Ando

Archtop Eddy

The following is more of a memory-lane piece than a history item, but it does address some of Ando's questions:

When Greg Gunter and I went to Europe in 2003, we took lessons from Moses and Daniel Rosenberg. Thanks to the generousity of the late Mary Honcoop who set up the lessons, and Leo Eimer who drove and escorted us, we were guests at the Rosenberg camp. At the time, we took lessons in Nous'che's house and Stochelo lived just about four houses down. Please note, how I said "house". While these homes were technically mobile homes, they hadn't been moved in years and were well established in their lots with gardens, patios, BBQs, etc. They were immaculately cared for by proud and orderly owners. Following our lessons, Nous'che joined us for an extended early evening jam on his patio.

The day before we visited the Rosenbergs, we were at another Gypsy camp and received lessons from Jan and Martin Limberger. Jan is Martin's father. He is a finely accomplished solo player; and Martin is excellent on rhythm guitar. They were both incredibly hospitable, and again lived in a spotless home in a spotless camp.

In fact, at both camps the families insisted we stay for dinner, filling our heads with new information and our bellies with great Gypsy home-cooking. Best of all, however, was the coffee. I have never tasted better coffee in my life! Ever!

A.E.

nwilkins

Ando wrote:

Is Vivi still playing?

Vivi is most likely still playing since he was featured on the Piottos' CD released in late 2003.

Ando

Thanks, Nick. I just ordered a new release by a band called "Kalinka" from here:

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kalinka

Tcha Limberger plays some guitar on it. The band's website has more mp3 snips for download. They sound very good.

Archtop, I for one have NO problem with your tripping down memory lane. You have walked down some good ones!

Cheers,
Ando

Ando

This may be a picture of old Piotto Limberger himself:



I'm betting that's Koen De Cauter directly behind him, in the hat, with the guitar.

Barengero

Ando wrote:

The name "Miranda" I've never heard before. Any light on this? It makes me think there may be vast numbers of players and groups -- many more than have gotten on to record, distributed internationally, etc. How big is the current Dutch group of players, really?

They spell "Mirando" as well. The Mirando family came from hungary to the netherlands. The "Tata Mirando"-ensemble ist the official Gypsy Orchestra of the Queen of the Netherlands. The family produced a lot of talented musicians like Moro Mirando, Tata Mirando, Nelle (or Nello) Mirando. Violinist Nelle Mirando made a CD with the Gipsy Boys with the title "Tribute to Stéphane Grappelli" (Point Entertainment 6010, 1999) which possibly is still available. If you like I can look for more information (but not at once - in Europe its one o´clock in the morning now and I am getting tired)

Good night

Barengero

dennis

Ando wrote:

Thanks, Nick. I just ordered a new release by a band called "Kalinka" from here:

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/kalinka

Tcha Limberger plays some guitar on it. The band's website has more mp3 snips for download. They sound very good.

Archtop, I for one have NO problem with your tripping down memory lane. You have walked down some good ones!

Cheers,
Ando

i have that cd, it's quite nice

Barengero

I would like to continue my posting about the Tata Mirando Orchestra and quote some booklets etc. in doing so:

The Tata Mirando Orchestra was founded in about 1900 by Tata Mirando senior. His "real" name was Joseph Weiss.
Joseph, of hungarian origin, was the only "Tata"(=Father) left after the war. Together with his sons he formed the Tata Mirando Orchestra named after an Italien circus whose name he had once bought. Initially the orchestra consisted of three violins, a viola, a double-bass, two guitares and a cello. Until his son Kokalo (the later leader of the Mirandos) started to play the piano and develloped into a brilliant pianist. In those days they regularily performed for Grand Duchess Louise van Baden and emperor William in Germany, who were most impressed with the Mirando´s masterly and virtuoso feats. In consequence, Joseph Mirando personally erceived a decoration to which was attached the title of "Royal Gipsy Orchestra".
In the fifties the Mirandos also became a phenomenon in the Netherlands and for them a Golden Era commenced. They gained a wide reputation through many radio and tv programs and performances in the Netherlands´leading restaurants.

Furthermore, during this period Tata Mirando became the regular orchestra at the Royal Palace. They performed at e.g. the Silver Wedding Anniversary of Queen Juliana. Prince Bernards birthday and the inauguration of the Netherland´s then Queen Beatrix. For the latter performance the orchestra received a charter and an inauguration medal.
On 5 January 1967 Tata Mirando died. At first Morchi Mirando was in charge but as early as in 1973 he decided to pass the name of Tata on to his brother Kokalo Mirando, because Kokalo´s son, violinist Nello Mirando, was already concidered a very dignified successor. When Morchi died, on 7 January 1992, he was at any rate sure that the tradition of the Royal Gipsy Orchestra would be preserved for the third generation thanks to Nello. At present Nello jr. is also master of the 4th generation: Nello jr. the 3rd.
Nello jr. the 3rd., Kokalo´s grandson, is also a very talented violinist.

I saw the Tata Mirando Orchestra live several times. They are all very skilled musicians, especially (beyond the ones I already mentionend before) Nello Mirando sr. (cymbal/guitar) and Djangelo Mirando (double-bass), who is a great showman. During a performance in Wilhelmshaven at "Django´s Promenade" some years ago, I saw some adult persons in the audience spontaneus beginning to cry, when Tata Mirando began to strike up some romantic tunes with two solo violins in close harmony. Their repertoire is of mostly "hungarian" origin (Szep a roszam, Frisch Czardas and so on) but also contains a lot of own compositions.

Passacaglia

Archtop Eddy wrote:

The following is more of a memory-lane piece than a history item, but it does address some of Ando's questions:

When Greg Gunter and I went to Europe in 2003, we took lessons from Moses and Daniel Rosenberg. Thanks to the generousity of the late Mary Honcoop who set up the lessons, and Leo Eimer who drove and escorted us, we were guests at the Rosenberg camp. At the time, we took lessons in Nous'che's house and Stochelo lived just about four houses down. Please note, how I said "house". While these homes were technically mobile homes, they hadn't been moved in years and were well established in their lots with gardens, patios, BBQs, etc. They were immaculately cared for by proud and orderly owners. Following our lessons, Nous'che joined us for an extended early evening jam on his patio.

The day before we visited the Rosenbergs, we were at another Gypsy camp and received lessons from Jan and Martin Limberger. Jan is Martin's father. He is a finely accomplished solo player; and Martin is excellent on rhythm guitar. They were both incredibly hospitable, and again lived in a spotless home in a spotless camp.

In fact, at both camps the families insisted we stay for dinner, filling our heads with new information and our bellies with great Gypsy home-cooking. Best of all, however, was the coffee. I have never tasted better coffee in my life! Ever!

A.E.

I'm sorry to revive an old post, but I just think this is one of the most heartwarming posts I've read, Eddy. You've traveled well, friend. Thanks for hitting home, sounds beautiful.