Many great players, still a doubt

sketch

Evrytime i listen toe players around me i feel astonished by the variety of styles i can find. Still this genre evolved a lot during the years i guess: evrytime i listen to django it's another matter... i mean, that is the difference betwean technical-minded players and good players i guess... I see and listen the vast majority of guitarists running through the notes, something without caring... I mean, i too fall for this. I believe most people lie to themselves saying "i'm still not good enough, one day after i've lernead some more skills i'll focus on intentions", but still they fail in the end... There's a thing that i believe made django that special: his solos where balanced: as if evry note had the same importance. As i said most of us common earthlings run through the notes, whitout caring most of the time. Sometimes playing thinking about a melody could make the difference.... am i wrong?

And now here's the question for those of you with more experience: Is the ability of playing melodies instead of lines of notes something that you develop with the experience? Because i'm starting do doubt it, and starting to think: if you want to play your melody, learning other people lines it's mostly corollary. You also have to find your way to your notes, and that's a completely different target on the process of learning; a parallel matter which if ignored can't be achieved!

What do you think?

Elliot

Well, GJ is jam-session oriented music now, which lends itself to acrobatics more than melody, and a stepping stone to bebop as well. I like to think in terms of musical phrases rather than a melody which to me sounds more specific to a particular tune, but I think playing blues is a good way to develop this facility and much easier since it is the same pentatonic every time.

Mark DS

Check out this article by Fareed Haque on improvisation, I think (?) it speaks to what you are asking. http://fareed.com/improvisation.html

nicksansone

For my taste listen to Fapy Lafertin
http://www.djangobooks.com/video-archiv ... here-eyes/
or Rino Hooijdonk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsoLo-CJ ... re=related
Both these guys have a mastery over technique, but I have seen them both miss notes or purposely sacrifice blazing quick under the finger runs to develop a melodic and genuinely improvised line. I honestly don´t know of anyone else who comes as close to the pure Django sound while retaining their own voices; and I feel like they always put the feeling and swing before any techinical exercise.

sketch

Mark DS wrote:

Check out this article by Fareed Haque on improvisation, I think (?) it speaks to what you are asking. http://fareed.com/improvisation.html

yes, in the end it states something linked to what i was suggesting! very interesting indeed.

I too think Fapy is amazing. Rino on that video sound very good too, still seams a lot uncertain in many notes.
Franco Altissimi in Rome, master in jazz, because of a rigid hand limit developed his own style with classical guitar made mainly on chord solos... Not suited for fast tempos picking techniques, but he found a place in other areas of jazz...
I guess stereotypical technique, apart the good aspects (bringing on the tradition) has it's bad side too: It doesen't suit anybody, but still this shouldn't mean that those which seam not fit cannot become great! There's always an own way of doing things, and i guess the hard thing it's to collect valuable material from other, sharing with them something, to develop instruments to go your own way... Metaphorically speaking i like to think this way: If at a certain point, for example when you have enough experience, you take your own path, it's there you can share the most, telling to other what you see and what you saw, hopefully something new, so you can give something to others. But if you run through the main path with the others until the end, becoming special become harder and harder, mainly because by this path the only way to become special is to become better. And in the unlikely circumstance you are gifted enough, in the end (as said by a very good freind of mine) you find yourself like the king of the mountain: Envied and alone.

nicksansone

i.e. The video of Rino... that's my point exactly. He has a few unsure notes, because he is making something new and interesting. I'd much rather hear that process than another person playing the same lick over the same chords all over again. You can either expect to hear every note perfectly executed or understand that in real creative improv everything isn't going to be cd quality perfect.

Elliot

sketch wrote:

in the end (as said by a very good freind of mine) you find yourself like the king of the mountain: Envied and alone.

Listen, that's a piece of popular legend designed to make people feel better. The truth is that anybody at the top of anything has their supporters, and detractors as well. As artists we reserve the right to only care about the former. For the rest it is you either like it or you don't.

Shawn

Great topic, and something I've thought for a long time. What sets Django apart for me was what he wasn't playing. By this, I mean his ability to construct a solo or melody with rests in between notes (Gypsy jazz shredders take note). Take Anouman for example, a fairly slow ballad, but one of the most beautiful compositions he ever created...no lightning fast runs or acrobatics...simply a beautiful melody with interesting musical ideas.

I don't know, maybe I've become a little jaded about the whole "Gypsy Jazz" genre as a whole. I like to hear interesting rhythms, and 4/4 and 3/4 Pompe has really just lost it's appeal to me. I feel sometimes like this music is just rehashing whats been done over and over since the Swing era and not moving on. Jazz has dramatically moved on since then...modal jazz, free jazz, fusion, etc...have all come and Swing just doesn't do much for me anymore because it's a very limiting music. I like having the ability to create new improvisations that aren't constricted by specified chord structures or other musical ideas that show a non-constricting nature.

This is specifically what I've always admired about Django. As new ideas in Jazz were emerging he was always growing with them, trying to seek out something different. If Django had lived long enough I would have loved to see what he thought of Cool, Hard Bop, Free Jazz, etc.

nicksansone

I remember reading about how Django improvised for 45 minutes over St. Louis blues at some restaurant and the clientele got upset and left, though he was know to be able to improvise continously without repeating himself on many occasions.l I know swing is certainly more structured and the classic pompe is very set, but for me it's especially beautiful to hear or see someone create in a absolutely free manner within limits, maybe its a bit more of a philosophical standpoint, but there are very real limits in our lives (ie. gravity) and to be able to be unhindered by these things are to me what makes a person great. I have to say that I hear people praising Bireli constantly for being a very fresh performer, and never really playing a concert like the last/next; but he of course is much more modern in his improv. For me that's were guys like Rino and Fapy come in, without drastically altering the harmonies or applying extremely outside tensions to the music, they can create something especially beautiful and its really rare to hear ( which is why I think people start to get tired of this current phase of gypsy shredders) these days, and close to the feeling of Django ,imo.

Michael Bauer

I think the biggest limit Django had to face in the recording studio was time. The whole band had about three minutes per tune. That's pretty limiting to a musician of Django's depth and breadth. Contemporary players always taked about Django's ability to play chorus after chorus without repeating ideas. That's a side of his playing we will never really know unless some hidden recording emerges that shows him really cutting lose at length.

I'll never play this music well, or even close to well, but I love it when someone else does. I remember listening to Wrembel once play chorus after chorus on "Minor Blues" and thinking that each note he played was the one note that HAD to follow the one he played right before. It was like a conversation, not just someone uttering words as fast as he could (And Stephane can "utter" pretty damned fast.) I thought, "That was the perfect solo". Then I saw him a different time play a completely different solo to the same tune and yet it still had that sense of coherence and internal logic similar to a conversation, another perfect solo. And I realized right then that he was playing on a level few players get to. And that's how I feel when I listen to Django.

One of my favorite things is to listen to Django play alternate takes of the same tune recorded one right after the other. I'll think, "That's the best solo anyone could ever play over 'Tea for Two', and then I'll play the alternate take and think the same thing, even though not one idea repeats from one solo to the next. To me that's genius, to make each solo sound like the only sequence of notes that made sense, that could have been played, and do the same thing next time with a completely different sequence of notes.

There are some famous players that I am not that fond of because, no matter how fast they play, I am still hearing licks. I appreciate the skill level (and wish I could do it), but frequently find the solo a bit sterile. Then there are those players who can reach into a song, wring every drop of emotion out of it, and leave the listener almost stunned by the end of it. Django seemed to be able to do that far more often than not, which is why he is still the guy everyone tries (or should try) to imitate.

sketch

Elliot wrote:

sketch wrote:

in the end (as said by a very good freind of mine) you find yourself like the king of the mountain: Envied and alone.

Listen, that's a piece of popular legend designed to make people feel better. The truth is that anybody at the top of anything has their supporters, and detractors as well. As artists we reserve the right to only care about the former. For the rest it is you either like it or you don't.

You see, mine was a metaphore... I don't believe to know the thruth neither i believe there's only one. But your answer brings oneother matter: what is art in the end? This is a very harsh question, and i believe most of us often changed their opinion about this... For example not many think about the origin of the term itself. In italian the "arts" where those of the craftmanship until the late XVI century, and as today we bring on a popular meaning of art as mainly aestethical arts. Fact is Art was stricly linked to learning process, experience, working by the master, and in this this kind of music maybe seams more archetypical. But still i wouldn't ignore the fact art is not only a matter of astonishment or magic tricks... In the end: Someone is more attracted by special effects and perfection, someone other maybe is attracted by fewer brilliant ideas. I like to think this music is open to both, mainly because many people is fashinated by the musical iinfluences, and the symbols and the cultural meaning behind the gipsy culture. And maybe art is what bring emotion, in a way or in an other one...

I'm very happy of the contributes and thoughts this discussion is bringing out by ebryone. I really want to thank evrybody for their shares on the matter