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Properties of Bubinga?
redblues
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Browsing Francois Charles site and came across a Mateos with bubinga wood on the back and sides
http://www.rfcharle.com/HTML/PhotosInst ... osB11.html
What a stunning looking wood. Just curious, does the wood have any properties (other than the look) that make it suitable to this type of guitar? or less suitable for that matter. I figure there is probably a reason why it's not seen that often on Selmacs.
http://www.rfcharle.com/HTML/PhotosInst ... osB11.html
What a stunning looking wood. Just curious, does the wood have any properties (other than the look) that make it suitable to this type of guitar? or less suitable for that matter. I figure there is probably a reason why it's not seen that often on Selmacs.
Comments
That said, from the pictures, the grain in the Mateos is rotary cut which results in the grain being parallel to the surface which is why you see those wandering grain lines. It is almost certainly a veneer. Given that most veneers these days are only 0.5mm (or less!) and the other three or four veneers under this are very likely to NOT be bubinga, it is hard to see how the tonal qualities of the outside layer matter to any significant degree. In laminated back/side made of 0.5mm veneers, there is nearly as much glue as there is wood. We should be talking about what kind of glue is used at least as much as the wood. (To wit, I use plastic resin glue for laminating because it gets very hard, quickly. Some use hide glue which does likewise. Many luthiers feel hide glue is the best for all tone related joints in the guitar. Aliphatic Resin glues like Titebond don't get nearly as hard)
If I were to tally the comments of guitar owners about their instrument's outside back/side veneer vs. tonal qualities, I suspect I'd be in the minority, but my opinion is the outer veneer is only decorative or at least of so little consequence as to be tonally insignificant. if you like the look of a particular veneer, fine, but don't expect it to impart a particular sound.
The reason you don't see much variety in the veneer on Selmacs is frankly, we are a conservative bunch. Django's Selmer used a 0.8mm rosewood veneer (with a poplar middle and mahogany inner layer) and being good djangophiles, we do the same (Brazilian & East Indian rosewoods and recently Santos, Pau Ferro, Honduras, etc.). You see some maple or mahogany used as Selmer made some of these as well. While each of these are wonderful woods, limiting to these only is just force of habit. Given a wide variety of veneers available, there are many other options. David Hodson used to use all kinds of exotic veneers. Shelly Park has used American cherry veneers. I've used American walnut veneer on a couple guitars, it is very attractive, easy to work, inexpensive and in large supply domestically. Built one last year using Moabi for the outer veneer and it looked great though is splits easily making it harder to work. I'm currently using some 0.8mm Makori (a cousin of Moabi) for all layers of a three ply laminate, very stable and flat right out of the press. I'll post some pictures when done.
Personally, for appearance, I favor quarter sliced veneers that have tight straight vertical grain. Guess that just goes to show what a hypocrite I really am. I know it doesn't matter, but it just looks like "proper" wood.
Craig
I was concerned I might have exaggerated, so I checked my glue record (gawd I'm geek) and weighed a few parts. A five ply back using 0.5mm veneer, a pretty standard arrangement, is 49% glue by weight. A three ply back using 0.85mm veneer is about 36% glue by weight. Both result in 2.5mm thick backs that weigh 305-315 grams. Note to myself: glue matters, use only authentic Selmer tone glue.
CB
Yeah, the appearance of rotary cut or flat cut wood is not the norm for instrument woods. In solid lumber it would signal instability and lack of stiffness, but in a veneer, these properties are largely meaningless, so it comes down to personal aesthetics. Not my style, but functionally, it will work just fine if you like it. "Any color you want mam, you pick it and I'll put it on the wall".
Craig
I do have one further question mind, when designing and building a solid body guitar like the one in your picture, how much extra care is needed regarding these tolerances. I imagine with a 3 ply laminate back and sides, with glue, you will have an aggregate coefficient of thermal expansion for the entire piece which would have a broader range than that of a solid piece. How does a builder compensate for this using solid wood?
Also if you don't mind my asking, which factors would you regard as important when choosing a solid (rather than laminate) material to work with in terms of expansion, thickness, durability and above all else tone?
Finally, of your own hand made guitars, do you prefer the tone of the solid or laminate?
Stiffness varies with the cube of the thickness, so tone critical parts like the top, back, side and bracing are usually milled to the tenth of a millimeter. A couple tenths in thickness can make a difference, though this usually has to do more with hitting a target rigidity as opposed to machining to a specific dimension. Stiffer woods can be thinner and vise versa. The properties and thickness of veneers are designed largely for the furniture industry and are sliced precisely for economy and laying dead flat on the substrate. Their use by instrument makers is completely off the veneer maker's radar.
If I understand you correctly, yes, a laminated piece is more stable than a solid piece and this stability allows a lighter, tougher instrument to be built if this is the luthier's goal. I can't speak for other guitar makers, but I personally don't take expansion and contraction due to environmental conditions in my calculations much. I start with well dried wood, stabilized to ambient conditions, then build in the cool/dry months. I don't have much problem with my guitars later drying out or blowing up with humidity. A lot of the environmental aspects of guitar design, have been worked out over the last 150 years. There is an accumulated knowledge base we often take for granted, that is "build it like this and it will work out ok".
Chapters have be written on this by people far more expert than I. Experts speak of a number of properties that go into backs and sides: Resonance (the quantification of which is sometimes called Q, Rosewood is high Q), rigidity, stability, ease of bending, workability, appearance. Thickness is just a way of getting at rigidity and resonance or dampening qualities desired. Sticking with the standard woods for solid b/s is a safe way to jump in. Certainly mahogany, maple, East Indian rosewood for instance are very standard fair, can't go wrong. With experience, it is possible to try a large number of alternatives.
I've only built one Selmer style with solid back and sides, the bubinga pictured. It definitely sounds different from the laminated b/s guitars I've built. How much of this is attributable to the bubinga is hard to say. The bubinga guitar weighs 3/4 pound more than any of my laminated guitars, but this is not fully attributable to solid b/s. Like many aspects of instrument building, it is quite difficult (for me at least) to say anything categorical about laminated b/s vs. solid. I have played a half dozen solid b/s Selmer guitars and I think they tend to be a bit rounder and richer in sound, but I'm not sure that is always a good thing in an acoustic swing jazz guitar. Solid b/s will in most case be a little thicker than the thinnest laminates, for better or worse. Great guitars have been built either way and I see no reason to say one is necessarily better than the other. Personally, I like laminating as a means of construction and have been working with it as a material like any other. My current effort is to go to 3 layers of thicker veneer, all from the same veneer slice. The result seems to be a bit like a hybrid between laminated and solid. It has a lower glue to wood ratio and maybe the wood being all the same may make it more "solid like". Certainly, the tap tones are lower and more solid like than my four and five ply backs with multiple species.
It should be mentioned that good guitars can be made for a very wide range of materials. Benedetto built one of his archtops using maple from shipping pallets for b/s and a top made from unmatched pine 2x8s just to show that high dollar tone woods are not imperative. He states that the guitar sounds as good as any others he has made. Antonio Torres, the father of the modern classical guitar made one with paper mache b/s to show it is only the top that really matters. Ovation plastic b/s come to mind. In search for more volume, some classical luthiers are making composite tops such as thin honeycomb core between two very thin layers of spruce. These can be lighter and stiffer than the best spruce tops. Laminated b/s is pretty common these days. Carbon fiber b/s as well as tops and necks is being done fairly successfully. Parker makes a carbon neck with wood veneer over it for appearance. As stocks of exotic hardwoods decline, builders are going to be increasingly challenged to try alternatives. Laminating and the use of composites is an obvious alternative.
Sorry to go on so, I really can sling it at times. Hope you find this helpful, or at least thought provoking. And of course, these are just opinions.
CB