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The real deal for great picks
marcelodamon
Asheville, NC✭✭✭ Selmers #560, #561, and #701/Dell Arte Macias, Blues Claire, Tuxedo, and Jimmy Rosenberg/Manuel May Custom/AJL 503 and Gipsy Fire (blue)/Cattiaux Chorus/Jerome Duffell oval hole/Olivier Marin oval hole/Sebastien Carmantrand oval hole
Hello group!
I found a seller from the Czech Republic on Ebay who has a sizable stash of very old and thus vintage material who makes picks. I ordered 3 and had him fashion them in the same size and thickness as my BlueChip TD100 (2.5 mm thick). He can make any size, shape, and to a lesser extent, thickness. If you search for TS picks Davepicks, you will find his ad. He charged $40 a pick.
Comments
How is the tone and feel compared to modern materials?
I'm divided over the use of existing tortoise. I'm totally fine with people ordering and using these picks and I'm glad if the guy who makes them is making a living. But getting one of those would make me feel like I'm a part of the problem. On the other hand what else are you going to do with it? As long as the animals are protected going forward, might as well put whatever is out there to use. Making music with one of these is better than a comb handle. I think...
Just like already-cut Brazilian rosewood is better for guitars than, say, furniture.
Doesn't the Czech seller need CITES paperwork or something?
Yeah makes me a little nauseated tbh. I get that might not be entirely logical but personally it doesn't seem desirable.
I hesitated to be the first to post, but considering the direction of the conversation, I will say I'm always hesitant when people claim it was "a pre-existing stash" of anything like this. Usually it is "a veneer that came off a jewelry box" or something similar. Considering the turtle has been protected for nearly 50 years, it would seem near on improbable that someone would keep these empty carapaces in storage for more than 50 years (because they would have come from before the ban) and then wait all that time with them, just to make a few picks to sell for $40 a pop.
Considering everyone talks about how great old tortoise shell guitar picks were (and we've had past threads) and people have been desiring to try them for those intervening 50 years, that would mean something like my grandfather storing these shells/material, passing them down to my father saying "don't use them yet, even though there is lots of demand" and then my father passing them to me saying, "ok son, now the time is right to make our ....errr...fortune! Guitar picks!"🧐
I would expect that the EU has pretty stringent controls on this stuff and I do know someone who works as a Fed to confiscate stuff like this (and various other banned/controlled products like tiger skins, etc) when they can detect them in shipping entering the US. This Czech guy might be legit. I just think that all those jewelry boxes, combs, or anything else that was made from tortoise shell in the before times that survived until now, would probably have long ago been broken down for all those people that are interested in purchasing these. Yet they still keep getting made and appearing from secret stashes. 🤷 (and yes, @pdg , you still need CITES certification, even if it comes from a pre-CITES stash, to sell internationally)
I'll shut up now. (btw, none of this is aimed at you, @marcelodamon , just my personal feelings on the topic.) ✌️
TLDR: I don't really believe in vintage "stashes" of materials banned for over 50 years.
Yeah in general as a value I'm also for the less fetisization of endangered materials. Good spruce to me is the hardest one as it comes from endangered forests and there isn't really a replacement for it (other than other rare trees that come from endangered forests. But the Brazilian Rosewood thing ultimately grosses me out.
It bears mentioning that the Czech Republic is a landlocked central European country, and most likely quite adherent to CITES (see below).
Additionally, someone very prominent in the gypsy jazz community, told me that about 20 years ago, he had a lead on an entire warehouse of vintage shells in Cuba, but ultimately wasn't able to acquire them because of the CITES, which was implemented in the 70s; even though the shells were from before the infamous day of July 26, 1953. Cuba, however, being a failed socialist nightmare, obviously didn't (at that time), nor do I expect them to ever have adhered to international treaties, paid CITES no mind at all, such as I have learned from researching this ongoing issue,
Globally, there are an estimated 8,000 to 23,000 hawksbill left, and as such, poaching them has become, logistically, very difficult due to sheer low numbers alone. However and unfortunately, it still continues today, with 80% of the illegal trade occurring in Japan, Indonesia, and China. As it relates to Japan, Japan is legally allowed to sell bekko (hawksbill tortoiseshell) domestically because international wildlife treaties do not ban internal sales, and the Japanese government permits the industry to operate using legal stockpiles accumulated before the 1993 import ban. As such, it is highly unlikely this fellow from the Czech Republic is sourcing new, albeit illegal, shells to make picks from these countries; especially considering the strict EU enforcement, which reads as follows:
"The European Union enforces some of the strictest wildlife trade regulations in the world through EU Council Regulation 338/97. All sea turtles are listed under Annex A, meaning commercial import, export, and sale are entirely prohibited."
Additionally, the consequences for such are as follows:
And it is highly unlikely that this guy would "get away with it" in the first place, given the advanced detection used. Such as border force agencies across Europe use advanced X-ray scanners, trained wildlife sniffer dogs, and specialized intelligence networks to intercept raw shells, jewelry, or antique items.
It is highly unlikely that this guy would risk all of this to make picks for $40 a pop. As such, it is far more likely that he does, in fact, have a stash of vintage material, or is using Japanese antique "bekko" items, as they are all over eBay (with accompanying paperwork).
However, and like you Paul, because I was not entirely OK with buying these picks without an appropriate counterbalance, I donated an equal amount to the cost of the picks I bought so as to sponsor/adopt a living hawksbill turtle from the Sea Turtle Conservancy, at the following site:
Donate - Sea Turtle Conservancy
Seems the only way to offset the continued, illegal, black market trade.
Thank you @billyshakes. Buyers and sellers present lots of cover (& plenty of cope) for laundering "TS."
Remember -- In the US ignorance of the respective laws does NOT exempt buyers from prosecution & seizure of goods.
Its also despicable that someone would $upport & implicitly perpetuate demand for this stuff so they can play blues licks & what not on expensive guitars.
I am not sure who you're referring to when you refer to someone "playing blues licks and what not on expensive guitars". Since I don't play blues, let alone blues licks, I assume you're referring to someone else. As for demand, it will always be there unfortunately; regardless of my support for the implicit perpetuation of demand as you described. Additionally, and apparently as well, you obviously didn't read my post above either, as the guy selling these picks is not using new material; given the impossibility to acquire it as described. And, as Buco stated above, better to use this extant vintage material for something useful, and as I wrote above, donate to preservation efforts.