Comments

• Jeff Moore Minneapolis✭✭✭✭ Lebreton 2

  November 2007 Posts: 476

  I haven't tried Schertler or Schatten, but I want to second Dr Hall in suggesting the K&K maccaferri. I've put it in 3 GJ guitars (and 2 others), and play out several times a week. I don't use a preamp but just use the eq on my little mixer. It's plug and play, and unobservable in your guitar.
  
  Jeff

  "We need a radical redistribution of wealth and power" MLK
• A.K. Kibben Tucson AZ USANew

  November 2007 Posts: 217

  Jeff,
  I have heard the K&K Trinity in Flat Top guitars and they are great!
  Pricey but a very good alternative that I was willing to try on my Sel-Mac's..
  Just haven't made the plunge yet...
  I appriciate hearing on how players are amplifying their guitars even though I am a condencor mic kind of guy!
  Rode NT3 and the AKG C1000S...
  A.K.
• MichaelHorowitz SeattleAdministrator

  November 2007 Posts: 6,178

  I haven't tried the K&K, but there's a well known local pro who had one and he had a lot of feedback and tonal problems. He now has a big tone.
  
  In general, they seem to have the same problems that most of the stick on type piezos have (McIntyre, Schatten, etc). Because they're mounted to the top, or a brace, they don't get enough gain. So they're always feedback issues. The nice thing about the bigtone is that it's mounted IN the bridge, so it's super hot. That's why no preamp is needed...the piezo it generating a huge amount of gain all by itself. That's why they've been such a popular option for Selmer type guitars. I don't think there's anything you can get louder before feedback, save for a magnetic pickup.
  
  With that said...I'm sure you can get a good sound out of K&K, Schatten, etc. But if you need to be really loud, it probably won't work as well. And you also have to deal with preamps which the bigtone doesn't need.
  
  Internal mics seem to generaly have failed with Selmer type guitars as well. Again, feedback is the main problem. But also, the mics just never sound that good. A mic in front of the guitar is amazing...but inside it's usually boxy sounding. There was a John Jorgenson model Dupont years back that had an internal mic. I think it's telling that John never performs with that instrument...
  
  The Rosenbergs usually play with their bigtone into an amp (usually a Trace Elliot) and then also have a mic in front of the guitar. That way they get the volume and clarity of the piezo with the add warmth of the mic. But that only really works on a concert stage. Forget about doing that at your local bar!
  
  
  'm
• Jeff Moore Minneapolis✭✭✭✭ Lebreton 2

  November 2007 Posts: 476

  Every friday I play pretty loud to as many as 70 noisy diners. I've never attempted to induce feedback on purpose (so I don't know the ceiling), but neither have I ever had any feedback ever. I've never thought about it till Micheal brought it up.
  I used the mic at quieter times tonight (AT Pro 70). It does sound more naturally acoustic, but it is so sensitive that my breathing sends air past the mic (quite noticeably) even though it is in front of the sound hole.
  I'm not getting out to listen to other GJ. People may be playing at higher volumes, but that's hard to imagine. I'm playing solo, so that might account for it.
  
  Jeff

  "We need a radical redistribution of wealth and power" MLK
• Jeff Moore Minneapolis✭✭✭✭ Lebreton 2

  November 2007 Posts: 476

  I haven't tried the trinity. I share Micheal's concern about condensers in the sound box. I've mounted the Pro 70 several inches above the sound hole. It gets in the way occasionally, but sounds pretty darn good.
  The K&K is glued to the underside of the soundboard exactly at the ends of the moustaches. Its very hot. The difference, between K&K and condenser sounds to me like "space". The condenser is coupled to the air above the guitar. K&K is coupled to the guitar itself, hence no sense of "air" "distance" "space", but the sound is true to the guitar, just very direct. I use some reverb to get some sense of distance. I wonder if the Schertler also has the "no space" issue compared to a mic?
  I need to get out more and hear what other folks are doing.
  
  Jeff

  "We need a radical redistribution of wealth and power" MLK
• MichaelHorowitz SeattleAdministrator

  November 2007 Posts: 6,178

  Jeff Moore wrote:

  Every friday I play pretty loud to as many as 70 noisy diners. I've never attempted to induce feedback on purpose (so I don't know the ceiling), but neither have I ever had any feedback ever. I've never thought about it till Micheal brought it up.

  
  Hi Jeff....I believe you once told me you play solo through a PA. Correct me if I'm wrong.
  
  Most Gypsy jazzers are playing through amps with many other musicians so volume and feedback are much bigger issues. Through a PA you have the speakers in front, and rather far away which is makes all the difference. Guitar amps usually end up fairly close to you.
  
  The guy in Seattle who had a K&K came to our weekly jam and he could only get about half the volume before feedback that everyone else did.
  
  I'm not saying that it's a bad pickup....but it may not be as good for those who play in more feedback, volume challenged situtions.
  
  'm
• Jeff Moore Minneapolis✭✭✭✭ Lebreton 2

  November 2007 Posts: 476

  I'm playing through an amp. It's inches behind me, so its a tough environment for feedback, but I'm not getting any. Even at home when the amp and guitar are just a foot or two apart without my body interposed, I've never had feedback.
  
  I want to thank Micheal and Josh for creating space for these discussions and helping personally with problems, creative solutions, and information on our obscure and rewarding topics.
  I've never come in contact with most of the reference guitars in GJ, and without the discussions all over this site, I'd have not come in contact with people willing to share their experience, preferences, and the like. Nice!
  
  Jeff

  "We need a radical redistribution of wealth and power" MLK
• MichaelHorowitz SeattleAdministrator

  November 2007 Posts: 6,178

  Hi Jeff....sounds like your K7K is working much better then the other one I've heard. Why don't you bring it down to the Latona jam in Seattle sometime so we all can hear it.
  
  thanks!
  
  'm
• EmmettRay Honolulu, Hawaii✭✭✭✭ Koa Iseman, AJL XO-503, Holo Busato

  November 2007 Posts: 89

  Thanks again guys, this has got to be the coolest jazz forum on the web!
  
  I can see this Django style spreading to a popularity greater than when the man himself was alive....
  
  as far as guitar playing goes, THIS is where its at! Everything else is for wankers...
• Dr. Hall Green Bay, WisconsinNew

  December 2007 Posts: 65

  Been playing a lot of gigs with my Gitane DG-320 lately, and I wanted to post a follow-up to my opinions on the K&K Pure Macaferri piezo which I installed in the guitar. Lately I've been leaving the clip-on and stand-mounted microphones at home because the K&K is really doing a great job (to my ears and to my students' ears who've heard us at least) of reproducing the natural acoustic sound of the guitar. I second the concerns about feedback from internal microphones expressed on this forum, and I think the K&K Trinity system would actually be a waste of money for a guitar such as the loud and responsive DG-320. When I've used the Audio technica clip on (mounted upside down pointing inside the sound hole rather than outside the soundhole) I've gotten some feedback, and the acoustic sound isn't that much better to make it worth the trouble. Depending on the room we're playing, I set the eq basically flat on my AER amplifier (off the floor on a chair usually) or run direct to the house pa, and I haven't had any trouble with feedback from the K&K alone, even at pretty loud volumes. In some rooms the mids or lows need to be cut a bit, but it's been in tight rooms. In the home studio (12x15 feet) I can get some feedback if I decide to crank the amp, but that's just experimentation. In the coffee-house and bar rooms we play, it's never been a problem unless I hold the guitar facing the amplifier Jimi Hendrix style. I'd like to re-state that the sound from the K&K is really thick and hollow (like the DG-320 unamplified) because it picks up the sound not only from the initial attack but also from the internal reverberation--both cause the soundboard to vibrate after all. The signal is super hot too because I installed the discs permanently internally. No need for a pre-amp, great sound, simple plug-and-play convenience. Like I said in the earlier post, the only real worry was the big hole I had to drill through the end block, but that turned out fine and for the sound I'm getting I have no regrets. Just in case anyone is considering the K&K, I'd endorse it, and I'll likely put the K&K in my next GJ guitar unless it comes with a suitable system already.
  -Stefan