Random thoughts of a fool...

Lango-Django

1) OK, let me begin by admitting--- I AM A FOOL!... How did I not know what every other guitar player seems to have known forever---?

Namely, the EADGBE-tuned guitar has five basic scale/arp positions, namely C, A, G, E, and D... and these come in several flavors like "major", "minor", "seventh", "major pentatonic" and "minor pentatonic"... (For the moment, I'm putting aside the less-used "augmented" and "diminished" scales.)

2) I'm so dumb, it took the Givone book hitting me over the head to make me realize this!

3) Now I realize, duh!--- just as Givone has his version of the five shapes... Django had his, and BB King has his, so does Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, and every other great guitarist you can think of...

4) Now granted, there IS more to playing the guitar than just these five positions. But these are one of the most important foundations of the instrument, and if you don't know 'em, you don't know shit!

5) Now, I must also admit to havng had some misconceptions about the Givone book which are gradually disappearing, to wit---

- YES--- you need to be able to use those positions to find the notes you want... however...

- NO--- GJ is not about parking in one position, it's about moving freely from position to position.

6) Now that being said, Django sometimes DID deliberately park in one position... for instance, the bluesy melody of "Crepuscule" is played almost entirely in G position (aka Givone's "form 3"), because that position turns out to be a real good one for bending notes... try it!



7) Speaking of playing the melody, that's another thing I find the five positions useful for, they often make a nice easy way to find the melody, though sometimes the melody will go above or below the shape you are using at the time.

For ear training, I sometimes challenge myself by attempting to play some of my favorite tunes in all five positions... it sort of takes me back to when I was twelve years old, learning to play the harmonica!

8) This may sound really stupid, but one of my musical goals is to someday to find my own version of the five shapes.

While I'll never stray too far from my beloved Django, I'd like to get into my playing some of the brilliant sounds of Bix Beiderbecke. He had a great ear and knew how to go for that totally unexpected note... ( I wonder if the cornet has five shapes!) ... plus I really love a lot of Bix's contemporaries like Frank Trumbauer, Adrian Rollini, Jimmy Dorsey, Joe Venuti and Eddie Lang... there's just something about that twenties and thirties hot jazz that I'll never get over... it's the greatest thing ever... well, except for maybe 'girls' and 'substances'...

Your guitar buddy & fool-in-residence,

Will

PS I find hope in the old saying, "The fool who persists in his folly will one day become wise."

spud

i think the caged forms are just tools for learning by getting your fingers,eyes and ears connected.
for thse of us learning this style it can makes things very clear.

i doubt that hendrix or django thought in forms. they just used their ears and knew which note sounded like what.
i think that django, because of his fingers, was obliged to move more horizontally than in vertical caged forms.

your suggestion of working out themes in relation to the forms is very good. its really working the ear-finger connection.

Lango-Django

spud wrote:

i doubt that hendrix or django thought in forms. they just used their ears and knew which note sounded like what.

Well, okay, of course they probably never formally studied 'Forms' set out in the way that Givone does, but they pretty much HAD to use segments of those forms when they played, no matter how much they were using their ears.

I've learned some of Django's solos note-for-note, and it is my opinion that he DID definitely use many "form"-type vertical CAGED-type fingerings.

He had no choice--- certain fingerings are essentially unavoidable, given the EADGBE tuning, the size of the guitar fingerboard, and the shape and size of the human hand. Sorta like how gravity applies to everybody, regardless of our knowledge or ignorance of Newton's Second Law!

spud wrote:

i think that django, because of his fingers, was obliged to move more horizontally than in vertical caged forms.

Oh, yeah, undeniably, Django was the father of horizontal guitar fingerings, and they are a large part of what make his sound immediately recognizable.

But consider this: why would Django (or any other guitar player) discard fingerings which he'd already learned prior to his hand injury--- IF he could still manage to use them in spite of the injury?

My admittedly limited studies of Django's solos lead me to the conclusion that he DID have some limited use of his third finger, and possibly even his badly-damaged fourth finger. I think most people who have ever tried to copy his solos note-for-note have found cases where some use of at least the third finger is unavoidable. eg, listen to the breath-taking sweep-picked diminished chords in "Autumn Leaves" and tell me how he could have done that with only two fingers.

Or even more obviously, listen to Django's guitar-violin recordings with Grappelli, where you'll hear Django playing beautiful rhythm guitar: just try to sound as great as Django did, using only two fingers and a thumb... simply can't be done, my friend!

Will

Teddy Dupont

Lango-Django wrote:

My admittedly limited studies of Django's solos lead me to the conclusion that he DID have some limited use of his third finger, and possibly even his badly-damaged fourth finger. I think most people who have ever tried to copy his solos note-for-note have found cases where some use of at least the third finger is unavoidable. eg, listen to the breath-taking sweep-picked diminished chords in "Autumn Leaves" and tell me how he could have done that with only two fingers.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Django only used two fingers in his solo single string playing ...... and he never recorded "Autumn Leaves"

Lango-Django wrote:

Or even more obviously, listen to Django's guitar-violin recordings with Grappelli, where you'll hear Django playing beautiful rhythm guitar: just try to sound as great as Django did, using only two fingers and a thumb... simply can't be done, my friend!

He could clamp his third and fourth fingers on the top strings for chords as can be seen in many photographs.

Lango-Django

Oh shit, okay--- yes, my memory is failing me! You're absolutely correct, Teddy, it wasn't "Autumn Leaves".

But over the years, somewhere along the line I borrowed this lick to use when I play "Autumn Leaves"... with a bit of research now I realize it really came from Django's Feb 1946 recording of "Nuages", the one that starts with the artificial harmonics.

Listen carefully to the swept triplets at bar 25 and 26. There is simply no way to play this with only two fingers.

And the fact that Django could even clamp his third and fourth fingers on the fretboard to play chords shows that he could use them, to some limited degree.

Will

Bones

Can you post the clip of the section that you are referring to?

Thanks

Lango-Django

OK, buddy, I had to do a bit of searching online because previously I only had this cut on vinyl, but here's the clip...



Listen to Django's break when all the other instruments stop playing. There is just no way on earth he could have played that using only two fingers.

Svanis1337

Teddy is right. Countless photographs shows Django's remarkable dexterity in the first two fingers, and hampered movement in the third and fourth. Maybe a good surgeon at that time would have completely repaired Django's hand. Django had the money for it, but he was a little afraid of doctors. During 1946 when Django was in England, he had to be taken to the French Hospital in London due to a recurring throat problem. He was photographed in bed with his guitar with Beryl Davis and Stéphane Grappelli beside him. That was one of the only times he ever visited any Hospital at all.

I'll never know how he's able to bend his middle finger like that. It's like a hook. Django could twist his index and middle fingers without twisting the hand. Crazy. I had a photo showcasing this but it doesn't want to upload so these others will have to do. He just had virtuosity on another level, big hands, long, thick and agile fingers, and he looked and sounded like no-one else. All these things combined made a star that the likes will never be seen or heard ever again.

Look at his left hand!

Lango-Django

Yes, his left hand was amazing, and several generations of us wannabes know what Django could do with it was amazing.

But even Jesus H. Christ could not contort two fingers of his left hand into this shape

-------F#---
----C--------
-------A---

which is what he would have had to have done to play that sweep-picking passage.

It is universally accepted that Django had the ability to use fingers 3 and 4 to play chords. There is just no reason why Django would NOT have used his fingers to make shapes like the one above for sweep-picking, assuming that he was able to do so and wanted to do so.

I wouldn't be surprised if playing such shapes with his left hand would have been somewhat painful to Django... I've read accounts by other guitar players who say that Django told them that his burn injuries were a constant source of pain for his entire life.

Will

Svanis1337

Lango-Django, where is that version of Nuages Take 2 taken from? Which LP/CD?

Here's another photo. Django couldn't get his damaged fingers any higher than that.

Lango-Django

That cut was from the "Souvenirs" LP

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/mus ... venirs.htm

Thanks for all the nice Django photographs, by the way!

But I don't think that the way Django posed for pictures necessarily proves anything about the abilities/disabilities of his left hand.


Will

PS I hope I'm not pissing anybody off!

Unfortunately for you, you have gotten into an argument with one of those idiots that just likes to argue about stupid shit.