Random thoughts of a fool...

Teddy Dupont

I think we are probably just arguing semantics here. Django would have hooked his third finger onto the first string for this sequence but I consider it as basically a chord shape played in different positions down the fingerboard to get an effect. The third finger would not have moved relative to his hand. It would have just stayed clamped to the fingerboard as his hand moved down dragging it along with it. When he performed those diminished runs in the other direction, he played them with his first two fingers only on the lower strings but when he reached the top string, he would have clamped the third finger into that inverted "v" shaped and simply moved his hand up the fingerboard.

He often used the device of clamping his third and fourth fingers onto the top two strings in fixed positions and moving his hand up and down the fretboard using the same chord shape. He might even move his first two fingers relative to the "static" (in relation to his hand) third and fourth to enhance the effect further. To me, the aural depth and apparent complexity of his accompaniments are even more remarkable than his solos when you consider the limitations of his left hand.

kevingcox

Teddy stated pretty clearly from the beginning that he was talking about 2-fingered single string soloing. If there ever was a time when Django's ability to use his 3rd and 4th fingers to make what are essentially moving chord shapes was ever in doubt it was long before I got into this music about a decade ago.

Like Teddy observed, you are both saying essentially the same thing from two different directions.

-K

Lango-Django

This has been kind of a shitty day for me, I got sick and I've been in the hospital most of the day, and now I'm in bed sick at home!

Since there wasn't a hell of a lot I could do in the hospital, I got to thinking about Django's fingers.

And I started to think, WTF, you know maybe he COULD actually use that big middle finger of his to diagonally barre two different strings at two different frets...?

Now Occam's Razor stipulates that the simplest solution to a problem is most likely to be the correct solution, so I still think it was more likely that Django would have played that passage using three fingers.

But, hey----this is mere speculation, I may be totally wrong.

So here's what I thought would make a fun way of trying to settle this.

I'm attending Django in June again this year, and I know there will be a lot of wonderful players there.

So I hereby offer fifty bucks to the first person who shows me that they can tape their 3rd and 4th fingers back a la Django and play that passage with just their first and second fingers.

I won't even insist on you matching Django's tempo, the mere fact that you can play it at any speed will be good enough for me!

Will

Jazzaferri

In watching what little footage there is and reading comments form those who had played with him he pretty much just used the 3/4 fingers on chords.

His single string ability with two fingers still leaves me breathless.

A mental exercise that really helps to learn the fretboard .... decades ago I was told I had to know the name of every note on the fretboard pretty quickly and quite a number of them now are instinctive.

Anyway take any scale and do this but for the example I will use C major

Play each note of the scalein the correct octave as many times as you can using a different fret string combination as you can. So for C major it would be (and this is from my head so hopefully no mistakes or omissions)

C S6F8 C S5F3 D S6F10 D S5F5 D S4open E S6F12 E S5F7 E S4F2 etc etc fingering usually I use little finger on C first finger on the other C and middle fingers where applicable.

Don't go crazy on t 5 minutes a day at most and just pick one scale I suggest starting either C or D major as best to start. It may help if fretboard knowledge is minimal to work back and forth on the first note of the scale in the different locations until you are familiar enough that it can be done with a metronome at about 80 bpm cleanly. Once there try another.

After a few months of this you will be surprised a how well you can find your way around the board.

For those that read notation a great book for learning all the different scale/intervallic arpeggiations is Sal Salvador's "Single String Studies" Its a classic

Jazzaferri

Oh BTW Lango

In two minutes I am at 80 bpm as a triplet eighth pattern on those three notes that you show if they are S3F2 S2F1 S1F2 ......sweep picking cleanly no flubs

And I know that Django caould play my ass off so 8) Keep your fifty bucks I get it you are not well and that affects one's judgement

The trick is as soon as the pick leaves the A that finger goes up to S1F2 and lands just in time to pick the note.

For a $100 I would work it up to 120 bpm but at DIJ just get one of the many guys who could play that know without thinking to show you how fast they could do it

Alphonso, Gonzalo could both do it faster than that without blinking

Lango-Django

Thanks, buddy! Always nice to hear from you, and thank you for offering your usual sensible advice.

OK, I think I understand your strange notation system...

C S6F8 C S5F3 D S6F10 D S5F5 D S4open E S6F12 E S5F7 E S4F2

S= string and F= fret, right?

Well, from what you say, it looks like I'm gonna lose my fifty bucks when I get to DiJ!


Will

kevingcox

I still don't understand what there is to "settle." You said there's no way Django could do that sweep with two fingers and everyone else agreed, and now you want someone to prove that they can do it?

That's like on mythbusters when their myth fails they try to reproduce it anyway, no matter how many explosives it takes. Maybe I just don't see the point in trying to do something for the sake of finger acrobatics rather than musical facility.

Best of luck to all those who attempt this.

Lango-Django

It was all meant in fun, Kevin.

As you recall, this whole discussion began around Django's use or non-use of the five forms... I said that he knew and used at least his own version of the five forms, and others said, no, they didn't agree. Then the discussion changed to Django's use or non-use of fingers 3 and 4.

See, I just enjoy bullshitting about stuff like this, and of course I always THINK I'm right, but then again, maybe I'm wrong.

And if some smarty pants like Jazzaferri were able to show me that I was wrong about this, too, that'd be okay with me, and I wouldn't even mind paying the fifty bucks.

But if I've pissed anybody off with my idle banter, fulsome apologies...

Will

Bones

Will, your link wouldn't open for me (probably my computer which is on it's last legs) but I am curious to check it out. This version (below) has harmonics at the beginning of his solo. Is this the one you are thinking of?

If so, how many minutes/seconds into the song is the passage that you are thinking of?

thanks

Jazzaferri

I cant see anybody being pissed off but i too would say my words were not intended to cause any offence.

I have known Will on this board for a few years and have the greatest respect for my friend. I hope one day that our paths will cross in person.

I know that I am cheating a bit as I put finger number 2 on String 3 Fret, the A and Finger number 1 on S2 F1 for the C. AS my sweep pick starts as soon as the second note starts my finger is already moving to S1F2 the F# and lands at the same time as the pick. I am a little slower on it but I can even do the 4 note diminished that way. They are great finger exercise for dexterity.

I probably even do it unconciously from time to time while I am playing due to other factors but I mostly would tend to use all my fingers either going down as I pick pr fretting the chord and sweeping away.

Will, if you feel you have to do something with your $50 buy yourself and few starving pro musicians a drink and say a cheers from me too Amigo 8)

I hear lots of tricks like that in DR's vocabulary.