Progress report time?

Lango-Django

OK, I'm going to make a little progress report of my own pitiful efforts and perhaps it'll inspire other members to share how they're doing?

I've skipped ahead a little bit through the book and have had fun learning the swingy major-key stuff on pages 38, 40, 54 and 67. I can play them pretty accurately at about 75% tempo and am struggling to increase my speed on them... the "Ragtime" one on page 67 I can even manage to play at full tempo, with about 30% accuracy! But I keep trying.

Working on the Ab exercise page 54 made me see what those linking exercises are all about. I'm still not hugely convinced that they're all that necessary to play all the other more interesting stuff in the book, but I'm back onto them again. I went back today and looked at my Gonzalo "How I Learned" booklets and realized that a lot of his arps also change positions in the middle, though not in the same way that Givone does ie changing fingering down on the sixth string.

The more I use the book, the more I realize that it's not really the How-To-Improvise DIY kit I dreamed of. I do get some use out of his "five forms" fingerings when I improvise, especially some of those dominant forms that begin down on the sixth string from various scale degrees in ways that I wouldn't have thought of..

While Givone does give a few hints about improvisation along the way, to me it's kind of like if you were a high school kid who wanted to play jazz saxophone, so you went to the music store and found a play-along book of somebody's version of beginner sax solos... except due to copyright laws, the book couldn't include actual standard jazz tunes that sax players really play, so the author made up little beginner exercises in the same vein. But as long as the kid sticks right with the book, it sounds sorta like he's playing jazz, even though he's not really improvising.

But that's okay to somebody at my level, this book is challenging because it's gonna be a workout just getting my fingers to move fast enough play all this stuff at speed...

To be honest, for me, being able to improvise Givone-level stuff at Givone-level tempos may or may not happen in this lifetime, but anyway I'm going to keep trying.

Will

spud

Lango-Django wrote:

While Givone does give a few hints about improvisation along the way, to me it's kind of like if you were a high school kid who wanted to play jazz saxophone, so you went to the music store and found a play-along book of somebody's version of beginner sax solos... except due to copyright laws, the book couldn't include actual standard jazz tunes that sax players really play, so the author made up little beginner exercises in the same vein. But as long as the kid sticks right with the book, it sounds sorta like he's playing jazz, even though he's not really improvising.

i imagine the copyright thing is exactly why givone doesnt use actual songs.

The more I use the book, the more I realize that it's not really the How-To-Improvise DIY kit I dreamed of. I do get some use out of his "five forms" fingerings when I improvise, especially some of those dominant forms that begin down on the sixth string from various scale degrees in ways that I wouldn't have thought of..

its definitly not the perfect how to impro book. i see it more as a guide to which notes and patterns you can improvise with over certain chords and progressions. and the good thing is you are kinda of obliged to make them you're own. (even though givone doesnt himself talk about this aspect)
but as i said somewhere else he doesnt give you much for when the chords change quickly such as rhythm changes, or djangology like progression etc

certainly the best guide i have found for learning how to approach impro is denis's dvds. here you not only have licks but also many concepts about how to break down songs harmonically.

dont lose hope though. as i said it takes a VERY long time to absorb givone's five forms, they are not all you need but i think they are Very very useful.

Lango-Django

Spud, have you ever worked with the two Gonzalo "How I Learned" books?

They're kind of similar to Givone, but use real GJ standard tunes. Unfortunately, I wasn't all that thrilled about the quality of the accompanying CD's. They sound weird and are no fun to play along with. I'd be pleased to buy a better recording if Gonzalo ever did some re-recording.

The Wrembel book has some decent play-alongs at reasonable tempos for a beginner. In particular I remember learning the exercise based on "Minor Swing".

The Oberg "Gypsy Fire" book had some cool lick ideas in it which I liked and still use, but his tempos were way too tough for me. His version of "Shine" is scary just to listen to, never mind try to play along with!

Someday I definitely will give Dennis Chang's stuff a try. It would be nice to support a fellow Canadian.

However for now, I'm gonna hang in there with Givone a bit longer. He's a tasteful player and who knows?--- sometime in the next decade I may be able to play his stuff at 100% tempo!

As you can see by the preceding list, I've been guilty of changing GJ instructional manuals more frequently than some people change underwear!

The one thing that is weird is, most of this stuff I work hard to learn and then it just doesn't seem to stick--- to my brain or my fingers. You know what I mean?

Except for Django---somehow when I learn his stuff, either by buying a transcription at djangosolos.com, or struggling to work it out for myself, it seems to stay with me, and I actually do use his licks in soloing.

Is it just me?

spud

Lango-Django wrote:

Spud, have you ever worked with the two Gonzalo "How I Learned" books?

They're kind of similar to Givone, but use real GJ standard tunes. Unfortunately, I wasn't all that thrilled about the quality of the accompanying CD's. They sound weird and are no fun to play along with. I'd be pleased to buy a better recording if Gonzalo ever did some re-recording.

The Oberg "Gypsy Fire" book had some cool lick ideas in it which I liked and still use, but his tempos were way too tough for me. His version of "Shine" is scary just to listen to, never mind try to play along with!

However for now, I'm gonna hang in there with Givone a bit longer. He's a tasteful player and who knows?--- sometime in the next decade I may be able to play his stuff at 100% tempo!

As you can see by the preceding list, I've been guilty of changing GJ instructional manuals more frequently than some people change underwear!

The one thing that is weird is, most of this stuff I work hard to learn and then it just doesn't seem to stick--- to my brain or my fingers. You know what I mean?

Is it just me?

me too i've tried heaps
gonzalo's is too lick based for me, and because they are all quarter notes in exactly the same rhythm - i think its rather that which makes it sound weird and boring rather than the recording quality (and the fact that for the fast versions he has just sped up the slow recording- a little lazy methinks). there are probably some very cool licks in there but it will take a while to find them. the part where he analyses the songs is more interesting but its a shame that its not more in depth.

obergs is pretty good i think for starting by getting some good tricks and licks. again though it's lick based. the studies are good in the way they review everything and the fact they are actual songs. but yes you are quickly confronted with the speed issue

i think the speed issue is a very easy issue to address- with slowing down software and metronomes. for me it then becomes a very logical and almost mathematical excersise: at what speed can i play quarter notes/triplets well? dont worry about the tempo of recordings. you start slowly and build up work up little by little at your own pace.
there are phrases that are harder than others of course - you work on those more.
again its a long process
the difficulty for me is in jam sessions because everyone (especially in paris) plays so damn fast.

the memory thing is interesting and you dont hear too many people talk about it. i'm like you- i forget everything rather quickly. denis chang told me that you should just work on around 3 phrases PER MONTH to that you really know them and then you will never forget . gonzalo kind of says the same thing - learn a few phrases really well, use them as much as you can, in all the different keys and build your vocab slowly from there.
i'm a bit too proud to work only in this way because it feels too much like cut n paste.

the other problem i find working only with licks a bit linked to speed thing- because it means that in jams you have to have already worked for a long time to get the speed needed to play those licks. on the other hand if you know what notes to use and understand the harmonic structure of a song, you can play something that sounds ok (and sometimes even very good) even if the tempo is too fast for you (which it often is in jams when you begin).

Lango-Django

You're living in Paris? Wow. Are you French?

I'm sure the GJ scene there would be pretty intimidating!

Will

spud

no i'm australian.
yeah its VERY intimidating because everyone plays so damn good and i get my ass kicked all the time. but contrary to what you might think most people are very nice and encouraging.

Lango-Django

How do you make a living in Paris?

And more importantly, can you get me a job there, too?

Will

spud

i work as a performer in theatre. slowly getting to do a bit of music on stage too.

Lango-Django

Formidable!

Check your private mailbox, buddy.

Will

Lango-Django

OK, you naughty schoolboys,

As a retired teacher, my radar is telling me that most of our Givone group members have fallen off the bandwagon somewhere a few miles back there and are lost in the high weeds.

Not to worry: for I have a cunning plan.

(How cunning is my plan? Why, it's so cunning, you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel.)

Here's the Cunning Cut'n'paste Challenge:

1) Pick your favourite basic 32-bar tune, but please choose something in an easy key with easy changes.

2) You're going to need a rhythm track for your tune, which you can find online or create yourself.

3) Get hold of some TAB paper, or make your own using the --------- key, and make a chord chart for your tune.

4) Go through the entire Givone book and find a matching lick to go under each chord on the chart.

5) When you're finished, post it in our group Dropbox. That way, everybody in the group will get to learn from everybody else's work.

6) Since we're talking about 32 bars, how about everybody submits something by the end of 32 days?
Let's call it "the end of May".

Whatya say?

Will

Jazzaferri

Will

I am curious, where re you in relation to being ble to play scales nd stuff like that