Discouragement

pallopenna

I don't want this to be the forum's first truly neurotic post, but I'm pretty discouraged at my lack of progress over the last year and a half in learning this style, and basically I'm looking for a way to convince myself not to give up completely. I've got a wealth of learning materials, and I've worked with Michael's book (although not perhaps as religiously as I should, but after my typical 10-12 hour work day I just do what I can).

I'm a reasonably accomplished bluegrass and fingerstyle (a la Renbourn) player, but not too much of those skills seem to transfer to the GJ realm. I also know jazz pretty well. I played lead alto in a big band for a number of years.

First and foremost, I cannot seem to get a good gypsy tone no matter what I do. I believe that I'm executing the rest stroke properly (at least at slow speeds). I also think that it's not my guitar (a Shelley Park Mountmartre -- Favino style). When I use really thick picks, my sound is like mud, slightly thinner picks and it's like murk.

Tone is the most important thing to me. I believe that I need to get that first or the rest of the technique will never come. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I wonder if any of you had very long bootstrapping times until you "got it?" I'd appreciate any advice that anyone has.

Thanks,

-Paul

a

i go through phases where i have it, or i think i have it. but then I'll watch a gypsy jazz video or wake-up on the other side of the bed and start experimenting with ways to hold the pick a little differently or angle my wrist in a different way. that always makes me feel like i'm starting from square one. if i miss a couple of days of practice, i sometimes play better when i first pick up my guitar because i'm more relaxed. other times, i'll play for several hours and when i wake up the next day, have to remind myself how to hold the pick.

i've noticed that when i'm having an off day it takes many hours of practice before everything clicks. but, when it clicks, my playing is facile and i feel lucid. i think that's probably what happens over long periods of time as well. (e.g. play for many months with difficulty and then everything seems to click one day) it's such a physical style...i feel like i'm in boot camp sometimes. all that said, there's definitely a cumulative growth that is hard to recognize when you're toiling away at 60bpm. when i first started, my playing never used to click and i would get really frustrated. sometimes i feel like switching over to this style has been like method acting in the sense that, sort of like django i've had to (and still do) endure through a long time of not being able to play as easily as i did before starting this style. micheal talks about that in the intro to gypsy picking.

hope this helps.

MichaelHorowitz

Hey Paul,

Don't give up too quickly! Learning to play guitar is a lifetime commitment....a year and a half is a drop in the bucket. If you keep at it, 5 years from now you'll have something to show for it. If you quit, well, you'll have nothing...

To keep yourself motivated, it's important to have musical goals that you can achieve over the short term. The most common one is to become a really solid rhythm player....keep practicing lead, but try to find a musical situation where you can just play rhythm, and do it well. That will help keep you motivated and give you some satisfaction.

Also, judging from your background it looks you have two BIG musical challenges:

1) Technique: As we know, Gypsy technique is very formalized and requires a lot of time to master.

2) Jazz: This is jazz music, so you have to learn improvisation and all the other skills that go with playing jazz (be it Gypsy or not). Playing bluegrass doesn't really prepare you for this. Because I had played straight ahead jazz for years, I only had to worry about the technique part which made it easier. When you also have to learn the mechanics of jazz improv you have a lot more work to do.

Ultimately, the journey is the most rewarding part of learning. There are no real short cuts other then getting some good instruction and working really hard. Tone is a lifetime pursuit as well...why do you think guitarists spend their whole lives trading guitars, trying new picks, etc? No one is ever 100% happy....guys who are obsessed with it never stop trying to squeeze a little more tone out of their sound. Others just find something that's good enough and don't worry about it anymore...

Good luck!

'm

Phil

Hey Paul - I hear you, no doubt, as do many others on this forum. I've been playing or trying to learn gypsy-jazz guitar for 5 years. It's a tough road, but it's a lot of fun trying and the music makes me feel good! There's been many times when I've thought I had a particular style or technique down only to hear and see others doing it a different way and sounding better. I've done a lot of jamming with many others and watched many videos of the gypsy jazz masters as well as jammers and find that I take little bits of advice/technique /ideas from these many different resources to get some sort of gypsy sound of my own.

For a few years I never had the correct gypsy picking technique and only recently started again to try to learn it, but what inspired me, was actually not playing, but sitting and watching Michael at this years DFNW. I put my guitar down and was sitting on his right and just watched his technique. It was so much clearer to me to actually see what he was doing than trying to follow it in a book. (Michael perhaps a DVD to accompany your book is in order here! :idea: :?: )

I also listen closely to many different gypsy guitarists. One thing that it took me a while to notice was the different vibratos that the gypsy guitarists have and how they use it to incredible effect. It was something new to me.

I still don't have the "correct" technique, but it's better than it was and it has helped me get a better tone from my Gallato. I put "correct" in quotes because I feel ultimately there is no "correct" technique. Because just when you've been trying your hardest not to rest any part of your hand on the guitar body, I then witnessed Dorado doing just that on some of his soloing at Jazz Alley. So I think ultimately, what's helping me is taking a few ideas from here and there and putting them together to give me a technique that I feel comfortable with and gives me the sound I want. I feel that apart from quitting my 40+ hours a week day job, quitting and taking personal lessons from a European gypsy guitarist, this is the best attempt I can do. Most important: I'm having a lot of fun trying!

cheers and keep on jamming

Phil

MichaelHorowitz

Phil wrote:

For a few years I never had the correct gypsy picking technique and only recently started again to try to learn it, but what inspired me, was actually not playing, but sitting and watching Michael at this years DFNW. I put my guitar down and was sitting on his right and just watched his technique. It was so much clearer to me to actually see what he was doing than trying to follow it in a book. (Michael perhaps a DVD to accompany your book is in order here! :idea: :?: )

Thanks Phil. I've been meaning to do a DVD for years...along with 1000 other things! I promise I'll get one done eventually. It's still a one man show at Djangobooks so there's only so much time...

Because just when you've been trying your hardest not to rest any part of your hand on the guitar body, I then witnessed Dorado doing just that on some of his soloing at Jazz Alley.

I'd be careful about taking these exceptions too literally. Dorado's technique is definitely a little different then the classic approach...but when playing trad. sounding stuff, he seems to stick pretty closely to the floating wrist technique. The wrist comes down for the more modern sounding bebop lines....Bireli also does this for modern lines. But Angelo and Stochelo don't...

'm

pallopenna

Thanks for your input everyone. I've determined to go back to Michael's book and start from the beginning. You guys are absolutely right about the journey being the fun part. I think that, for me, part of my frustration is that I'm doing this completely on my own. As far as I know, there's nobody else locally (Rhode Island) that plays GJ, and the folks I know of who are even semi-close (the Northhampton crowd, e.g.) are way beyond my abilities right now (not to mention, not all that close geographically either), so I don't have the satisfaction of jamming with people (which is the best part of playing in my opinion). Anyway, hope springs eternal, so I'll stick with it. I really do appreciate all of your comments.

Thanks!

-Paul

Jack

Paul,

We're always glad to host people up here, whatever skill level-half the fun is just meeting each other (even when we've met before!). I should have dropped you a line last week-I just got back from holiday in RI this afternoon, and drove right through Providence...Next time, maybe we can meet up. I've also heard from a few players in Rhody if you'd like their contact info; one's in Newport, and the other is a band somewhere in the northern part of the state... http://www.chuckrejto.com/minor.html

Best,
Jack.

pallopenna

Jack,

Thanks for the link. I'm going to try and catch the band sometime. I'd love to have the Newport guy's contact information, if you've got it. I'd also like to come up your way sometime; maybe some weekend when you guys are playing and there's something to do for my wife and baby (although my wife plays fiddle too). Anyway, I appreciate the standing invite, and by all means, the next time you're headed my way, give me a holler.

-Paul

Mark

Don't give up, this is a brilliant book that breaks the technique down to its bare basics, with what I think are good explanations of the style.

I'm a full-time guitar teacher so I'm really fortunate to spend 5-6 hours a day on my guitars. After six months of working through this book I found myself really getting some wonderful results. Unfortunately very few of my students want to learn the Gypsy style of playing but that doesn't stop me using it lessons even if I can't work on the exercises very often. You' be amazed how well this style works for songs by Stevie Ray Vaughan, Red Hot Chili Peppers and Jimi Hendrix not to mention others!!!

You'll get there, but it does take a disciplined effort.

Cheers Mark

vince

a wrote:

i go through phases where i have it, or i think i have it. but then I'll watch a gypsy jazz video

I think watching some videos or listening to some music is very encouraging. As a student, I occasionally put down the guitar when I get busy with work, but just listening to Django or others always encourages me. I really like these videos http://www.about-django.com/news/videos/videos.php... it's a good collection and they are all free.

Sometimes I get discouraged as well about the music genius idea... that Django's a music genius, I am not, and therefore I should quit. But don't let you get this down... even a music genius is nothing without an absurd amount of practice. I've heard Charlie Parker used to practice 10 hours a day.... So I hope you hang in there!

V

keary18

Hey Paul,

I know how you feel. I'm a fingerstyle player too, studied with Renbourn at the IGS seminar that Woody Mann hosts, and that's great music to keep playing. But with this style, the best advice is to try and get with other players, even if it's one player, and meet when you can - even if they're way beyond you, who cares if they don't? The rhythm will take you where you want to be. My playing partner/teacher, kept telling me in the beginning stages three over 4 years ago to learn the rhythm. Since we all want to solo and play great lines, we forget the rhythm. But to me, now I'd be just content to play rhythm because I'm learning the enormous amount of possibilities AND with rhythm you'll develop your attack, style, ear and tone. A lot of times I just turn on the backing tracks and try to keep a constant groove with that. But don't give up, this music will make you a much better player in other areas, it just takes time...hang in there!!!

David