Discouragement

djadam

(Michael, I hope you don't mind that I quoted part of your book, but if so, please edit this post as you see fit)

I'd like to add that I got the gypsy picking book and to be honest, I read something on page 6 which made me put it down (at least for the time being):

I was fortunate enough to have the luxury of practicing eight hours a day on a regular basis... and after six months I felt fairly confident... If you take a hiatus from performing for at least six months, then you will learn much faster. If you try to mix your old technique with the rest-stroke approach too soon in your development then it will be very difficult to master the required motions."

In my case, I am barely scraping up a living and loving life because I have been gigging regularly for the past 4+ months. But what the above paragraph tells me is not to bother with the gypsy technique unless I can detach myself from my band, my job, and everything that keeps me fed for six months.

I can easily understand why the mixing of styles would hinder my progress, but can you see how discouraging this is for people like me? Has anyone here had success in incorporating the rest stroke technique without putting their lives (especially their musical lives) on hold for it?

Perhaps you should have inserted a paragraph about the usefulness of finding a sugar-mommy!

MichaelHorowitz

Sorry about that...I still think its best to be honest. The vast majority of guitarists are highly delusional about what it takes to develop good technique. There's no way around it....you have to put in the hours.


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djadam

Honesty of the brutal kind is a rarity and I appreciate it, especially from someone trying to sell books - most authors would probably rather blow smoke up your ass and sell some more books. You even give examples in your book about what the technique is bad at!

What it comes down to for me is that I'm playing with a great group and we're growing tremendously as a group and as individuals. I couldn't walk away from that for even 1 month, at least not until I hit a wall with my own growth.

My frustration comes from the fact that I know I'll need those 6 months eventually and it's difficult to conceive of how that will work. Not to mention I live in the land of instant gratification and I want to incorporate rest stroke NOW!!! :twisted:

My other question stands though - can it be done without stopping performing, even if it takes years? Can one continue to play and perform live with their old technique while at home, secretly practicing the rest-stroke? Can I learn to speak German without giving up English? Is that a valid analogy?

Meanwhile, I fully support the idea of an instructional DVD for this style. I'd buy it in a heartbeat, even if I'm not ready to incorporate the style into my own playing yet... just to get a clearer picture of how it works.

Thanks Michael!

MichaelHorowitz

djadam wrote:

Honesty of the brutal kind is a rarity and I appreciate it, especially from someone trying to sell books - most authors would probably rather blow smoke up your ass and sell some more books. You even give examples in your book about what the technique is bad at!

My next book will be called Play like Bireli in 1 Hour...ha ha

What it comes down to for me is that I'm playing with a great group and we're growing tremendously as a group and as individuals. I couldn't walk away from that for even 1 month, at least not until I hit a wall with my own growth.

Yes...that's always tough. However, nothing good in life comes without sacrifice. I was lucky to have had full support from the Fulbright commission for a year (your tax dollars at work!). Because I was doing research it was my job to learn it. It would have been tougher to do had I been a full time gigging musician.

My other question stands though - can it be done without stopping performing, even if it takes years?

Yes....it'll just be slower. I think it's especial hard at first...maybe give your self at least 1-2 months of pure rest stroke just to get your muscle memory acclimated to the basics. Then go back to gigging with your other technique while developing the rest stroke slowly during your free time. I think that would work. However, I know for me many of the breakthroughs I had with this technique happened because I was totally focused on it. It takes so long just to get the feel of it..where it's a totally natural thing. I'm just afraid if you're using another technique simultaneously it'll be hard to get that deep internalization. But it will probably happen eventually...as long as you stick with it.

I find that guys who had really bad technique in the first place get the most gratification from the book. Since they had so much trouble playing already, the rest stroke was a total revelation. For guys who already had highly developed technique, it's really painful to switch. But the rewards are plentiful!

Good luck!

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pallopenna

First, let me say that I'm really appreciative of all the replies to the original thread. I've gained a renewed interest in learning the technique, and a lot of it is due to the responses here.

Second, Michael, whether or not you should drop everything to learn the rest-stroke technique, my sense is that when you do release the Gypsy Picking video (that I just know is coming), a lot of people (myself included) will be able to learn a lot faster. My guess is that seeing and hearing is more effective than reading and hearing. I know that when I've been able to closely watch what people do, I can emulate it much faster, and more accurately as well. I also think that I learned more in your seminars at Django in June than I had in the 6 or 7 months before that.

Cheers,

-Paul

MichaelHorowitz

Thanks Paul....I really want to do the DVD. As well as 1000 other projects. Again, the big problem is that it's really hard to pay the bills with just my books (and eventually DVDs.) The market is really small, and increasingly competitive. So all the other stuff...strings, picks, CDs, etc help to subsidize the books. I'm hoping that eventually I can bring enough in so that I can higher someone to help me do all the day to day stuff here: shipping, dealing with orders, answering emails, etc. Right now that's sucking so much time, but I have to do it because otherwise I can't keep DjangoBooks afloat. So the best thing you can do is buy more stuff from DjangoBooks....and tell all your friends to do so as well! ha ha....then I'll be able to higher an employee and go back to full time writing!

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djadam

Michael Horowitz wrote:

I find that guys who had really bad technique in the first place get the most gratification from the book. Since they had so much trouble playing already, the rest stroke was a total revelation. For guys who already had highly developed technique, it's really painful to switch. But the rewards are plentiful!

This part gives me hope in learning the rest stroke, even if I'm gigging without it. After 18 years of playing, I have lousy technique, so maybe I won't have as much to unlearn!

Thanks Michael,

Adam

BluesBop Harry

djadam wrote:

My other question stands though - can it be done without stopping performing, even if it takes years? Can one continue to play and perform live with their old technique while at home, secretly practicing the rest-stroke? Can I learn to speak German without giving up English? Is that a valid analogy?

You can try playing gigs with your fingers or just the thumb for a few months and devote your plectrum to learn Gypsy picking. I did it and it worked great, plus now I have a pretty good thumb technique as well!
The trick is to play as much as you can at the gigs with a non plectrum technique, and maybe use the pick for a couple of solos when your band mates start to look at you funny or a beautiful woman comes in
But try to stick to playing with your thumb (or fingers) as much as possible. You´ll probably not be able to play very fast but go for content instead of speed, and use pull offs and hammer ons for faster phrases.
And when you get to study GP try to put as much time as possible and do it very slowly concentrating as hard as you can, so it will come sooner.
This is a method that worked for me and after six-seven months I was finally able to play almost a whole gig with the new technique. I still use the thumb for a few things (mainly Wes Montgomery´s things) because I like the sound. But for the Django stuff is way easier and sounds so much better with GP.
I hope this helps,
Good luck!!
-Enrique

Dave Bricker

I'm also a teacher (though I don't teach guitar) and wanted to share a few thoughts here.

First, you don't mention what type of guitar you're using. If you don't have a Selmer-style guitar or at least an archtop, the right stings and the right pick, you can certainly play swing but you won't get that "authentic tone." That sound comes from a very particular type of guitar and your Martin may be a cannon, but won't sound like a Gypsy guitar. These guitars are really magical and will teach you techiques and subtle aspects of playing that you won't even hear on other instruments. I have a Martin, a '38 Epiphone Triumph and a Dunn on order, but right now, my Gitane gets the most mileage. You can't make a sax sound like a trumpet

Much more importantly, you can absolutely kill yourself trying to sound like Django or Jimmy Rosenberg or DeBarre or any of the masters. While it's worthwhile to listen and let them influence you, too many people get discouraged because they can't be Django, Joe Pass, Eddie Van Halen, Tony Rice and Andres Segovia at the same time. To make matters worse, you can practice for 25 years and some twelve year old SOB will smile at you and blast through stuff you've been trying to master for a lifetime.

If you have the time and talent, by all means, practice and polish. I've been slowly getting better for 25 years and at the same time, I've accepted that I'll be a "pretty good" guitar player. I have a business and a family, and for me, if I can continue to improve, learn new tunes, and hopefully inspire my baby daughter some day to enjoy playing music as much as I do, it will be a great thing. I practice a few minutes a day because playing is my drug, and I rehearse with my band on Sunday nights. If I spent 8 hours a day playing, I'd get better faster, but I'd also be broke and single.

Too many players beat themselves up when they're failing to attain stratospheric standards like those set by virtuosic Gypsy guitarists. You've got the rest of your life to get better, and the journey is far more important than the destination. That's why making music is called "playing." If you have the "gypsy sound" in your head, be patient with yourself and you'll find it in your guitar.

For now, figure out what you can do today to get better and enjoy the instrument. Tomorrow, you'll be as far ahead as you need to be.


Cheers,