Ischell setup?

Passacaglia

Hi all - I alluded to this in another thread. I've recently acquired some amp gear: Trace Elliott, Britain-made TA100R; Stimer S51; AT 831B lavalier mic; Ischell Inside Box.

In a run through of all these, in brief I was very impressed with the S51 and the 831B - granting I was not pushing anything, most surprised by how well the S51 came out.

Of all these, I was most surprised by how little I cared for the Ischell. It was not fried/distortion effect, but was the most "electric" sound of the 3 - which really surprised me, relative to the S51. Again, it was my first pass, and I was not pushing anything...I need to take everything to a sound room and push hard.

Anyway, given how much the Ischell has been almost universally praised here, I know it's me, and setup. I placed it far on the bass side, near the bridge...best as I can tell, this is where the brace extends. Other than that, went through the TA100R manual to try and optimally set gain, etc.

I know this is long, but here are the amp specs. What I'm seeking are suggestions for which input to optimally try, and any thoughts on tweaking (e.g., graphic eq., notch filter, etc.) to try.

Additionally, I know everything will change when I move to my new Shopis Favino D-Hole. For the time being, it's my workhorse DG-300.

Amp Specs:

Don't know if you can advise on this, but I tried out everything I have - Stimer S51, 831B, and Ischell - on the Trace Elliott acoustic amp, TA100R, yesterday. Granted, I wasn't pushing anything and merely took a cursory pass through setups, but loved both the Stimer and 831B, less so with the Ischell, which really surprised me. Of all 3, very oddly to me, the Ischell had the most "electric" sound...not distorted/fried, like a pushed stimer through a tube, but electric nonetheless.

I'm not versed in amp stuff. I know this is long, but shorter than me typing it out in my own words. What I'm looking for is advice on which channel/input this kind of a mic should be put in, and possible settings to gain as much clear transfer as possible. Here goes, the specs:

TA100R
Preamplifier
Inputs Piezo/Lo-Level Impedance 10 M½
Sensitivity 100mV to 8V peak to peak
Active/Hi-Level Impedance 6k8½
Sensitivity 100mV to 20V peak to peak
Low Z Balanced Impedance 470½
Gain Range +15dB to + 60dB
Effects Return Impedance 22k½
Nominal Level 0dBv
Link/Line In Impedance 4k7½
Nominal Level 0dBv
Outputs Effects Send Impedance 47k½
Nominal Level 0dBv
Balanced DIís Impedance 600½
Level 500mV peak to peak
Link/Line Out Impedance 4k7½
Nominal Level 0dBv
EQ Master +/- 15dB at 5 centre frequencies
Shape +6dB @ 160Hz, -6dB @ 900Hz,
+10dB @ 6kHz
Notch Q = 10, Range 60 to 720Hz
Phantom Power 48V DC
Digital Effects 16 Bit, 4 x Room, 4 x Hall, 4 x Plate,
4 x Delay. Foot switcable on/off.
12

TA100R
Preamp As above
Output stage MOSFET with Dynamic CorrectionTM
Output Power 100 Watts RMS
Output Impedance 8½
Speaker Configuration 4 x 5” With Phase switch
Dimensions W810mm / H370mm / D305mm
Weight

Jim Kaznosky

I use the Ischell and it sounds pretty good at high volumes. Nothing is going to sound as good as a mike, but I look at the ischell as an easy set up and allows me to get a good sound for rhythm. I've yet to try it through my Compact 60 (apartment living).

If the pickup and mike sound good and work for your gigs then you don't have to look too far. That placement that Stephane uses is one way with a Baggs Para DI and compact 60 with the eq on the Ischell box flat and prefers this bassier tone. Another player local to me does it similar to Ischell's suggested placement and says that it sounds great with a preamp through his compact 60. You might want to try messing with the switches on the ischell box to see if you get a livelier sound.

To me, it is better than the K&K, Bigtone, and Schertler Basik. The simpler the set up and easier it is to get a usable sound, the better.

Passacaglia

jkaz wrote:

I use the Ischell and it sounds pretty good at high volumes. Nothing is going to sound as good as a mike, but I look at the ischell as an easy set up and allows me to get a good sound for rhythm. I've yet to try it through my Compact 60 (apartment living).

If the pickup and mike sound good and work for your gigs then you don't have to look too far. That placement that Stephane uses is one way with a Baggs Para DI and compact 60 with the eq on the Ischell box flat and prefers this bassier tone. Another player local to me does it similar to Ischell's suggested placement and says that it sounds great with a preamp through his compact 60. You might want to try messing with the switches on the ischell box to see if you get a livelier sound.

To me, it is better than the K&K, Bigtone, and Schertler Basik. The simpler the set up and easier it is to get a usable sound, the better.

Thanks, Jim, helpful info. Forgot to mention that I also have the Para DI. I'll try messing with the switches, with the amp flat, and the Para. I also think perhaps I was way too off the right placement of the mic itself - tried going by where the brace seems to be going, but I'll bet this was just a wrong positioning.

This is going to show how little I actually do know about this stuff - but am I right in thinking that cables are fairly important as well? It's been a long time, but I have a few odd cables, XLR or XLR-1/4", etc., but can't recall if I got these from a bargain source, and the cables may not be the best. How important are these? Do you have a brand you tend to prefer using?

Thanks again,

Paul

Jazzaferri

The cable quality makes a noticeable difference but not huge. More important when using low output devices.

klaatu

Paul, all three guitarists in my band use Ischells with Baggs Para DIs or similar preamps, and we all get good clean sound at good volume with no issues. Not quite as acoustically "true" as the AT831b, but close enough to be very satisfactory.

Make sure you have not pressed the Ischell down too hard. You do not want the mike coming into contact with the top of the guitar. It should be suspended above the surface by the putty. Also make sure you have a good seal all around.

In addition to checking your placement (mine is sitting in line with the bass bridge foot, with about a half inch separation between the bridge and the Ischell, see photo) and the cable, check the settings on the Baggs Para DI. You have to be very careful with the Gain knob, which boosts the input signal. Too high and you will get horrible distortion. Our violin player has a fairly hot pickup, and he barely turns his gain up.

Try this. Turn the Gain on your Para DI all the way down (counterclockwise). Set all the EQ knobs flat for now (12:00 position); you can play with them later to fine tune if necessary.Then set the DI's Volume to about the 1:30 position. Start playing and gradually turn the Gain up until you get good volume with clean sound. If it starts to distort, turn it back a notch.

Hope this helps.

Passacaglia

klaatu wrote:

Paul, all three guitarists in my band use Ischells with Baggs Para DIs or similar preamps, and we all get good clean sound at good volume with no issues. Not quite as acoustically "true" as the AT831b, but close enough to be very satisfactory.

Make sure you have not pressed the Ischell down too hard. You do not want the mike coming into contact with the top of the guitar. It should be suspended above the surface by the putty. Also make sure you have a good seal all around.

In addition to checking your placement (mine is sitting in line with the bass bridge foot, with about a half inch separation between the bridge and the Ischell, see photo) and the cable, check the settings on the Baggs Para DI. You have to be very careful with the Gain knob, which boosts the input signal. Too high and you will get horrible distortion. Our violin player has a fairly hot pickup, and he barely turns his gain up.

Try this. Turn the Gain on your Para DI all the way down (counterclockwise). Set all the EQ knobs flat for now (12:00 position); you can play with them later to fine tune if necessary.Then set the DI's Volume to about the 1:30 position. Start playing and gradually turn the Gain up until you get good volume with clean sound. If it starts to distort, turn it back a notch.

Hope this helps.

Very helpful, thanks, Ben. Part of the problem is that I need to take my stuff to a soundstage or studio, to really push the boundaries (apartment living makes loud amplification an issue). I've got the 831B figured out pretty well, (and the Stimer, to boot - was happily surprised at its tone, but then I'm not pushing it yet, either). Your post and pic is a big help. I think I was way too wide on the placement, so I'd expect that might be at least a contributing culprit. I'll give your suggestions a shot. Thanks again!

Paul

Jim Kaznosky

Ben's placement of the Ischell is almost exactly where I've placed mine and his instructions are spot on. I do not use a preamp at the moment and I am getting good usable sounds with minimal tweeking on the amp. I've tried placing it on a few different places in the guitar and I do think this sounds good.
When I was exploring boutique pedals, cables, and power sources back in my rock band days, I was interested in the best that I could get without sacrificing sound, but at this point, I'm really just interested in an easy to use setup with minimal hassle and a sound that I can generally reproduce with ease. We've played small restaurants and large rooms and the sound of the room is something that is also a factor. Just something to keep in mind. But to answer your question on instrument cables, I keep decent quality 1/4 to 1/4 (and XLR cables if we need to go through a PA) that are readily available at my local shop. Nothing fancy.
Ben's instructions on using the putty are absolutely correct. If the mike touches the bridge you may feed back or get a lot of bass. If you are using a Para DI, It's probably best to adjust the settings on the ischell box to flat (both switches to the right) and use one eq source...meaning that having the potential to change eq in three different places increases variability and headaches.

It sounds like you are pretty well covered between the three systems to handle any gig. I think its just a matter of really exploring what you have and playing with it. That will also mean having a few gigs where your sound isn't great, but that's part of it.

Needless to say, my setup works for me and I strive for a good rhythm sound first and foremost since this is what I primarily do. Hope this helps.

Passacaglia

Absolutely, it does help. Very informative post again, thanks Jim.

Paul

Passacaglia

Forgot to ask. So, if I keep the Ischell switches flat, and the line goes guitar-Ischell-Para DI - XLR in on amp (and not guitar-Ischell-Para DI - PA), and both the amp and the Para DI have gain and equalizer capability - how do you deal with gain? I can understand setting, say the amp gr. equalizer and high and low trims flat, and using the Para DI's equalizers, but with both having gain, what is generally done there, then? I'm not certain what additional benefit putting the Baggs in between the Ischell and amp might be, unless it provides more sensitive cutting of feedback frequencies...have to go back and re-read relevant posts.

Anyway, for the moment, let's presume I'm going with guitar-Ischell-Baggs DI-XLR mic in on amp. Adjusting gain? Sorry for the noob question, never worked at all with this stuff.

(also, on the cable question - I have some different cables; don't have any standard guitar cables, 1/4-1/4. I know Best Buy sells the Hosa "Standard" cables for $8/10'. Just can't recall whether these are garbage. Need these to hook up the Ischell power source in and out...unless I can run it directly into the Para DI, using the Para DI as a power source, and foregoing the Ischell's power box?)

Jim Kaznosky

Paul,
I'd do it like this.
Guitar>ischell>Para DI>amp
Ischell eq set flat
Para eq set flat, volume at unity gain (or as Ben suggests)
Amp eq set flat, volume where you "need" it at your loudest point.
I'd use the volume and eq on the Para DI to make adjustments. Again, I don't have the Para DI, so there might be competing opinions. IMy line of thinking is to limit my variability to the absolute minimum number of sources on a gig. I've gone nuts tweaking sound on gigs and it never turns out good until I restart at a zero point and work with one eq and one volume. This actually happened last night when I experimented with placement of the Ischell for the hell of it and the dptp switches on the ischell box. Once I reset it to flat eq and went back to my known "good" position, I had complete control of my eq and volume in one place. Funny, as it was from reading this thread.

For cables, I would choose a cable that will theoretically allow me to repair it if something happens. If there is a tear in the shielding in the cable, exposing or cutting wires, the cable is toast to me. If there is something happening at either end (where I can unscrew the end and resolder the wire to the tip), I'll try to do that. A cable with a reasonable shielding and access to the either soldering point at the tip, I'll buy it. Basically, I get the best I can reasonably afford for the task on hand. I no longer buy make your own cables for bar or restaurant gigs. Things happen.

Again, just my two cents. Other people will have different opinions based on their gigs and needs.

Passacaglia

Thanks Jim. I think I'm getting it (sorry, I need to be dealt with like a child...truly a luddite to all things technological). The only thing I'm confused by is "unity gain." Looked it up, not sure what it means, in practical terms, here. :oops:

I hear and appreciate what you're saying about the "set it and forget it" notion....I recall Kamlo at DIJ, uses his Stimer everywhere because he just knows what he'll be getting, regardless of board and engineer.

ps: Silly question, but what do you do about the double-sided sticky things? Meaning, when I took the seal off the jack and plastic clip/holders, I presume you just leave it like that...do you find you have a problem with adhesion after awhile, because the tape on the parts dries up, something like that?