Thinking of wrapping this up in March?

Lango-Django

I've been doing pretty much exactly that in trying to nail a two bar phrase from the Givone 25 pieces book, piece #18, page 41, second line down; fast triplets of an F6 arp and then a C7 arp.

I've been playing these two bars over and over to the point that I can feel divorce looming...

But it's funny, when I listen to Givone play it, it sounds different than when I actually play it myself.

Mind you, I'm still working at about 130 bm top speed, but I'm determined to "own" these two bars, it's just so perfect.

If Django didn't actually play this phrase, well then he should have!

Bones

Case in point- Rythme Futur

I'm sure I've played those phrases 1000s of times and I definitely (kind of-sort of) own it...

...at like 60% of the speed that Stochelo plays it!!!

Lango-Django

Yeah,"the speed barrier", I hate that...

Jazzaferri

An interesting study was done a while ago

Researchers timed world class pianists doing those high speed flourishes that start at the middle and end up at the tinkley end. Ten they timed non musicians to bangsome notes on the way up not worrying about which notes then they timed mid level pianists


The results......the world class and the non p,ayers times were about the same

The mid range much slower. So it wasnt the physical act that was slowing the mid range players down.

Try tremeloicking on a string and work your way as fast as you can feom bottom to top not worrying about the notes....I bet Stochelo doesnt play any faster.

Think on it Grasshopper

Bones

Hmmmm......

I calculated that I played that G7b9 phrase from Rythme Futur probably about 1000 times yesterday by breaking it down into 2 bar phrases. Since wifey was out most of the day and I didn't have much pressing to do I decided to focus on just a few things. It definitely feels more 'comfortable' (less forced) today. But it does feel like it is the muscles in my left hand that are limiting my speed since I think that if my left hand could speed up my right hand would be able to keep up. When I try to push the speed I start to fumble a bit with the fingering and some notes are not perfectly clear.

I think it's just a matter of lots of time in the shed, the proverbial '10,000 hours' thing....(also should have started when I was 12 or so instead of 50).

Oh well, good thing I enjoy the 'process' none-the-less.

spud

Jazzaferri wrote:

An interesting study was done a while ago

Researchers timed world class pianists doing those high speed flourishes that start at the middle and end up at the tinkley end. Ten they timed non musicians to bangsome notes on the way up not worrying about which notes then they timed mid level pianists


The results......the world class and the non p,ayers times were about the same

The mid range much slower. So it wasnt the physical act that was slowing the mid range players down.

Try tremeloicking on a string and work your way as fast as you can feom bottom to top not worrying about the notes....I bet Stochelo doesnt play any faster.

Think on it Grasshopper

But stochelo could do it longer and not hurt himself. And thé Guitar needs more physical coordination Between left and Right hands

Lango-Django

The results......the world class and the non p,ayers times were about the same

The mid range much slower. So it wasnt the physical act that was slowing the mid range players down.

Moral--- never be a mid range player.

(I keep telling myself that...)

Jazzaferri

Mid range is a state of mind

chimorh

I’ve always hesitated to write – you all seem to be so accomplished but then I thought maybe you’d be kind enough to give me some advice ….for which I would be very grateful.

First of all I’d like to say that I read this section whenever there is a new entry and I’ve really benefited from the interesting input. I’m sorry to hear that you are considering closing it down Will as I have found that not only is it useful with regard to the Givone books but also very interesting to me as it seems to have evolved beyond this to become a discussion on the nuts and bolts of how to improve one’s playing in this style for us less than brilliant guitarists. I have been reading the Djangobooks and Guitar Jazz Manouche forum since they started but never dared mingle publicly with ya’al….as they say here in the south.

At the risk of boring you I’d just like to say that I’ve had a lifelong struggle with the guitar! I’ve been blessed with talents in many areas which have come easily to me…he said modestly….but, unfortunately, playing the guitar is not one of them. The study of Givone’s book has really started to open musical doors for me and, out of all the books I have worked with, it is the book that has most helped me to begin improvisation as such……at long last!!

I’ve given up the guitar 37 times so far in my life but maybe, finally, there’s a glimmer of hope and I feel that the Givone methodology has helped considerably. I’m actually beginning to sound like gypsy guitarist…he said, again, modestly. The pinnacle of my musical career….so far!!….was when my neighbour asked “Was that really you …..I thought it was one of those gypsy jazz records of yours!!!.....Wow!......Was she sincere or did she just want my 70 year old body?....surely not!”

Michael’s “Gypsy Picking” was the start of it though….took me 6 months to get rid of alternate picking…six months, an hour a day ….at least!!!....”Behn….swi-pas doue quoi!....Qu’est-ce que tu veux que j’y fasse, merde!”….now my fingers refuse to go back!!

Then the “Astuces de la guitare manouche” books….terrific!!....Then Denis Chang’s first DVD….wow that really is a good DVD Denis, I now can play a few tunes and it sounds manouche…behn un petit peu quand-meme!!!..........but I can’t improvise!!....then someone said on this site how good the Givone method was….so I started!....everyday!.....six months later my fingers know where to go on all the arpeggios!....another 3 months and I can play all of them fairly rapidly…as long as I start on the sixth string and go up or on the first string and go down but I can’t start in the middle!!....another 3 months I can visualize all the arpeggios, start on any string and go up or down…..and then I start actually listening to what I’m playing!!

Then I pick tunes and start “filling in the gaps” as Fapy suggests with snippets of the arpeggios…wow …I mean some of them sound terrific!!...even when I play them!...this does take me time, but I love it and I’ve got time…hopefully!! Now I’ve discarded, at great expense, my various wives and live-in women that I accumulated over the years I can concentrate on what I really like which is playing tennis everyday and my race to learn to improvise whilst I’m still here. For the first time I feel there’s real hope and I don’t think I’ll be giving up the guitar again…..thanks to you all..and Michael and Denis and Daniel.

If only you’d all started this when I was 10 years old….I could’ve …I would’ve been a contender now!!....I remember hearing flamenco guitar for the first time as a 4 year old…I come from Spain originally…….which went through me like a rusty razor blade…..”What the f**** is that?”…I asked my father!...”flamenco guitar”…he said!....”I want to play that”… I said!

Years later the same sort of thing happened when I went to live in Paris in the sixties and I was dragged to the marche aux puces by my Basque girl friend and I heard this “sound” coming from a small café called “La Chope”. Well after having spent every Saturday afternoon there for 5 years without being able to convince any of “them” to teach me despite my pleas, threats of horrendous violence and offers of bribes, I gave up. I struggled on, there were no books then - Djangobooks didn’t exist then, but life and women interfered and I finally gave up…for the 4th time…when, years later, I saw a 13 year old called Bireli Lagrene in a cellar in London playing that “sound” which has tortured me so deliciously over the years so easily and so fluently….and I’m now finally getting it!!! ….thanks to y’al…so don’t leave me now Will!

I’m now learning to place any finger blindly on the fret board and from where it lands play any arpeggio up and down from that point!.....I mean that is major stuff for me!!!

I’m beginning to improvise…....did I really say that!.....on 2 or 3 bars at a time! I took that tune that you write about elsewhere Will ….Les Roses de Picardie….and injected Givone’s 2-5-1’s….so apt …so apt! ….what a beautiful tune. I’d like to hear Fapy play it in addition to Tchavolo.

I know you don’t value the b9 arps, Will, but try bits of them with a tune like “The Shadow of your smile” ….So Givone’s book is a treasure for me.

What am I intending to do now….

I still get lost in tunes….I don’t know where I am!....and I don’t know how to address this.
I’d like to know how Fapy, Stochelo, Angelo and Adrien practice every day.
I’m going to study Denis Chang’s other dvd’s.
I’m going to go through the Gonzalo books.
I’m thinking about joining the Rosenberg Academy.
Soundslice is fantastic!.how can Adrian make this freely available …what a generous guy.
I thirst for transcriptions…hotclub.co.uk has a lot but not producing anymore.
Discovered Yaakov's Gypsy Jazz school recently and really like the format. I'm getting a lot from this.
I’m looking forward to Michael’s next book “Beginning and Endings”
How should I improve my technique as well as acquire more arp knowledge?
Is there a “Manouche gymnastics” like Robert Conti’s Wohlfart’s etudes that Denis Chang mentioned at some time that I bought as a result and have found very beneficial?
Will the Givone 25 pieces book be a help to me?

Wow…this a long entry…...Sounds like one of my wives....I hope I haven’t intruded too much.

Passacaglia

Just a brief nod of encouragement, chimorh. 51, but with a body that's seen some better days by far. Before 2009, hadn't played a note in 35 years, gave up and only came back a year ago this month. Physical challenges still plague me, but I've made so many friends in this community, learned so much from so many people, that I can thank my coming into this music, "late" or not, for immeasurably enriching my life. Seems you've been lurking for awhile, so you already know just about everyone here is full of encouragement and fellow-feeling, so congratulations on the progress you've made, and hope to see you sometime, somewhere, in the community!

Paul