Alternate vs Downstrokes for descending arpeggios

furryboffin

I come from a predominantly alternate picking background and I've been playing around with the downstroke idea for descending arpeggios for a few weeks. The truth is, I just don't have the speed with downstrokes to do anything useful. What do people think about using a sort of hybrid approach to Gypsy picking, whereby I use the standard downstroke approach for ascending arpeggios, but alternate picking for descending arpeggios. I think if this is acceptable, I could definitely achieve a more realistic speed.

Does anyone else use this as an approach?

furryboffin

Just to add to this question, can anyone tell me what is the reason for using a downstroke whenever you change strings? Is is simply to replicate how Django played, or is there some other reason?

anthon_74

I've struggled with this as well.

I asked Gonzalo Barguera about this in a lesson and he implied that you basically mess with the licks so they don't make you do high speed descending arpeggios. for example, when playing a descending arp, you can add passing tones, like a half or whole step above the chord tone you're playing. this basically switches your picking around so it's down up down up and so on moving from string to string. Stephan wremble calls it the "above approach".
Also, with practice, you can get much faster with the all down strokes on an arp. I can do it faster then I ever thought I would be able to since I began practicing it that way.

As for why all the down strokes, gypsies simply like the way down strokes sound in terms of projection so much that they do it this way. As you learn more of the licks, or phrasing tendencies in the style, you will find that the down strokes to start any new string tends to work rather intuitively with them.

one other thing, Paul Mehling of hot club sf told me to not worry so much about the all down strokes stuff, and just make sure you're playing every note as loudly as you can.

I go with something somewhere in the middle.

furryboffin

thanks for the reply, that's very interesting. just one thing about your last paragraph:

"one other thing, Paul Mehling of hot club sf told me to not worry so much about the all down strokes stuff, and just make sure you're playing every note as loudly as you can. "

Was he implying that you can still start new strings with an upstroke provided you play it loudly?

I"m at the point where I want to decide one way or the other as to whether to spend all that time changing from alternate to downstroke picking. I can sense it's going to be a lot of work. Whereas, if I were to just stick to alternate picking for descending arpeggios I would be able to learn licks more rapidly and increase my vocabulary faster.

Jon

The reason for the downstrokes is tone, and volume. There's no way to get that particular tone or the volume from alternate picking. It took me two years of lots of practice and gigging to retrain my right hand to be albe to (to the moderate extent I can now) use the downstroke technique properly, but it''s one of the best things I ever did for my playing. If you want the traditional sound, there is no other way. I came to gypsy jazz from a modern jazz background (and still alternate pick when I play that style), and had a career playing that stuff, so it was a huge step down for me at first, and I felt terrible each time I tried to do it on stage. I felt like apologising to the audience and saying "I promise, I can really play better than this", but it does improve with time. Never say you can't do something, or that something is just too hard. And never try to find ways around doing the really difficult stuff. Just jump in. Better start now than later. It's really hard, but you can do it. Loads of people play effectively with this technique, and, with patience, learn to do those descending arpeggios just fine.

Also, don't forget the impact that changing your right hand will have on your note choice/rhythm and the kind of things you will play. These things are only part intellectual/aural, and owe a lot to the physical approach of the player. Your brain makes many of the decisions, but it also reacts and responds to the situations that your particular technique pushes you into.

Jon

anthon_74

I will have to agree with Jon. When I've jammed with players who hadn't put enough work in on the rest stroke picking technique, and went primarily with alternate picking, I was told later by audience members that they couldn't hear the other player to well when he solo'd. The rest stroke accompanied by the stronger upstroke you can generate when it follows a down stroke on the same string creates an overall increase in tone and volume.

I think what paul Mehling was trying to instill in me was an understanding that I should pick loudly, which tends to force you to organically do more rest stroke picking. I practiced this way without knowing about the gypsy picking book or anything, and after a few years, my picking just naturally became rest stroke dominant.

It's been in the past 2 years that I've practiced speeding up playing a descending arp with only down strokes. I can go about 4 times faster than I could 2 years ago, though when soloing, I tend to add passing tones to my descending arps so they, as I mentioned, flip the picking around.

Cheers !
anthony

Charles Meadows

I have struggled with this a lot, having learned several tunes all the way through with alternate picking. I have just recently decided to go with the full rest stroke style, figuring it will help my overal technique. It looks like Stochelo and those guys give a bit of a bounce to the free downstrokes on the descending arps to facilitate the pick being better positioned for another downstroke. It has gotten easier with even a few weeks of practice. It's just that I still have to concentrate so I don't just automatically revert to alternate picking. I fugure someone who picks with a stiff wrist will have a lot of trouble with gypsy style.

furryboffin

Thanks for all your great comments guys! what does everyone thing about picking triplets... I was just playing around with rest strokes, and I found that I was naturally leaning towards playing the downstrokes on the first and third beat of the triplet... that meant I was doing a sort of down up down down up down down up down picking... even if this meant picking a new string with an upstroke from time to time... although I tend to find it's less often than with alternate picking... I figured it wouldn't matter so much playing upstrokes on the weak beats. It really emphasises the triplet rhythm too.

Should I avoid this and go for strict down strokes on new strings approach, even if this means I'm playing down strokes on weak beats and upstrokes on strong beats?

I always figured that it would make sense to have more accent on the strong beats... which I guess in some way is incompatible with ALL patterns using a strict downstroke on new string approach.

One other question I had: I noticed watching some top players that they don't anchor their right hand anywhere, it appears that even when picking solos they have a floating hand as they would with playing rhythm. is this true or just an illusion? I've always used my pinky and ring finger to anchor my hand by resting them either on the body of the guitar or on the strings(when playing low notes). Should this be avoided in GJ, or is it acceptable? I seem to remember hearing that Stochelo does it too. Am I wrong?

Jim Kaznosky

Michael's book "Gypsy Picking" is well worth reading if you are seriously considering making the switch.
In general, the principal is to use downstrokes whenever you switch strings. Also, the right hand isn't anchored at all.

anthon_74

Hey there ,

Second the gypsy picking book recommendation. In general, I hear time and again that everyone uses it.

As for the "posting" or anchoring of your pinky and or ring finger, I respectfully disagree that you don't do it. In fact, I've asked several people about this and they say that if you watch close enough, even the greats will anchor just a little bit. It's just way more subtle and you barely notice it.

In general, I don't find allowing the pinky to anchor affects the ability to rest stroke pick. you just have to get the hang of not posting really firmly and rigidly, but allowing your post to almost float and relax more.

Jim Kaznosky

I think the obvious example is Stochelo. He appears to be lightly toughing the guitar, not using it as an anchor. It does not appear as if the strength of the stroke is coming from a combination of wrist and pressure at the anchor point. I could be dead wrong, but this seems to be pretty clear in the videos I've seen of this.

Everyone is going to do it a little different (as evidenced in the Dinette thread). As long as the general idea is there, it will happen. It's finally really setting in for me.