"Walk before you run."

hanear21 · March 2013

It certainly is intimidating. If I waited until I thought I was good enough to do either rhythm or lead before playing out I'd probably have never met any of the great people I play with now. I agree anthon, better just to get out there and try. The sooner you do that, the sooner it becomes less intimidating.

Bob Holo · March 2013

Jazzaferri wrote:

Once people have played together for a while, the rhythm can take on a whole new approach, and become a CONVERSATION with the other players.....not an egoistic monolog, but a conversation where everyone leaves some room for the others to have a say....regardless of their role.

I hope Bob can clarify his remarks for me :oops:

Well, I don't know if it can be clarified as I'm just saying: 'Yep - I've heard that too." It's all subjective. I've seen people who played rhythm conversationally and I've seen people who thought they were playing rhythm conversationally but were really just stepping all over the music. I stick fairly hardcore to "just rhythm" anymore because I've recorded myself and determined that at my current talent level, I don't sound good when I try complex things and I do sound good when I keep it simple - but that's just me. By keeping it simple, I'm able to focus on locking with the bass player and listening to the lead player so I don't miss breaks or dynamic cues or ins/outs. It probably also allows me to focus more on good technique. The pros find the pocket and jump in it quickly, so anything they do - it's on top of solid rhythm that swings right and hits the beat right. But for mortals, the swing and the beat aren't givens. One of the most common things I've heard from new rhythm players - hell - even guys with a couple of years under their belts - is that sometimes the feel just slips away - either the speed is awkward for them or they can't hear themselves or any number of a dozen other distractions - but bottom line, they lose the feel and their rhythm starts to march or gallop. Keeping that dry, punchy "legit-sounding" rhythm across different songs and speeds and venues is a real challenge for a lot of folks... and certainly I'm one of them. But YMMV based on talent / experience / band-members / venue etc. etc. etc. I've seen some great vids of Gwen & Mika, Adrien & Gonzalo, Olivier & Benoit, Paulus & Feigely which are very conversational, so yes, I think it's definitely possible, but they don't have the same challenges and limitations that I do. What they imagine is exactly what comes out of the instrument; that's just not the case for me.

Another thing I've found along the lines of simplicity - I picked it up from watching a few really good rhythm players - is to come out of breaks very simply; literally no upstroke - just the downs. Doing this ultra simple rhythm for even just a handful of beats is a very effective way of creating space and separation when they are needed. I've also seen this technique used to introduce solos / headouts & etc.

Passacaglia · March 2013

Anthony and Hanear, thank you for what you write, it's very kind, and thank you for saying these things.

But for me, Bob said it perfectly:

The pros find the pocket and jump in it quickly, so anything they do - it's on top of solid rhythm that swings right and hits the beat right. But for mortals, the swing and the beat aren't givens. One of the most common things I've heard from new rhythm players - hell - even guys with a couple of years under their belts - is that sometimes the feel just slips away - either the speed is awkward for them or they can't hear themselves or any number of a dozen other distractions - but bottom line, they lose the feel and their rhythm starts to march or gallop. Keeping that dry, punchy "legit-sounding" rhythm across different songs and speeds and venues is a real challenge for a lot of folks... and certainly I'm one of them.

I got a lot from Hono's material on Denis's site (got a lot from Denis's site, actually, and Denis himself). Even though my desire since has really honed in on Nous'che's style, what Hono stresses there - basically, as a rhythm player, be clean, square, and supportive - really hit home. Again, I can only obviously speak to my experience, but I think that as I've improved, what I'm searching for is increasingly subtle, and it all goes to this Holy Grail, detailed by Bob here. Probably this way for all of us, I'd imagine.

Subtle, but simple. To me, and I don't mean to sound hokey about this, but it's almost a point of honor - if I choose to undertake a serious study of GJ rhythm, then fundamentally it's simply being - every time, every moment - light, dry, and perfectly square. I'm just not there yet, by any honest self-appraisal. I hear moments that thrill me, when what I'm intending is being carried forward into the playing, but these are moments. They're not effortless, and they're certainly not consistent.

I'm in awe when I look at Hono's or Nous'che's right hand - this absolutely perfect instrument of beat. I understand how artists like these can devote themselves to this. I may have mentioned it somewhere else, but I very much liken it to what in some martial lineages is called the "20 year throw." These are kokyu, "timing" or "breath" throws. Probably the simplest - and the ones that takes 20 years to truly accomplish.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I've a tendency to make a lot of words. There's really nothing else but practice. Thank you everyone, hope it's stirred something useful for others than myself.

Jazzaferri · March 2013

Thanks Bob, I completely understand you now.

Simplicity and space to create. That is the job of the rythm section, and never losing the feel or the groove to play something that is being reached for instead of effortless played.

Even a simple tritone sub if played that interrupts the solo sticks out like the proverbial

Steveareno · March 2013

Interesting points. Since delving into this style, I've come to appreciate playing (and listening to) rhythm guitar so much more in ALL styles of music.
Swang on,

Bob Holo · March 2013

And then again....

Here's a bit about one of my favorite "conversational" rhythm players. Granted, it's not GJ, but all these young players are influenced by the bop / cool / straight ahead / postbop guys and JH is a giant, so likely he's influenced all of them to some degree or another - and as the man says - Jim Hall is all about the conversation. Perhaps it doesn't truly qualify as "rhythm" so to speak, but then again perhaps it does. The modern guys can at times tend to do the "Extreme Rubato" thing, bordering on "Time signature? We don't need no stinkin' time signature!" And in that kind of scenario... maybe the counterpoint becomes the rhythm. After all, the rhythm is there to give the lead something to ride and push against to create tension and release. I guess a counterpoint is like that to some extent. Ah hell, who knows. I mean, it's Jim Hall, a guy doesn't really need an excuse to listen to him I guess, so without further adieu, this slightly OT but very tasty vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6xAkULRuUk&t=790

Passacaglia · March 2013

Wow, Bob, man - tasty vid indeed! Eye opening...I am constantly playing catchup from a lifetime of doing other things, so everything is literally new for me and I have so little enough in GJ, much less jazz generally. Thanks for posting this one - look forward to stretching out and enjoying later tonight.

Never really responded, by the way, to something you said earlier that really hits home:

Bob Holo wrote:

Another common sentiment from these folks is that rhythm is rhythm... not rhythm with embellishments... not rhythm with tricks or complex turnarounds or other B.S. that draws attention to itself at the expense of the music. Rhythm is a heartbeat, and it's the same with music as it is with people, when the heartbeat isn't steady, the music is at great risk.

This is such a diamond truth. I don't live in an area where personal study with a master is possible, so, yeah, sometimes I do wonder if I'm simply nuts, because most of my days - 2-3 hours on rhythm alone, usually an hour or so more in waltzes and lead fundamentals - are spent chasing the simplest things, heartbeat timekeeping, and as much as I can, the essence of what Nous'che does that just grabs and shakes my mind. Those two things alone are more than enough work, I find. I'm in awe of a master like Nous'che, or anyone else at that level of accompaniment. I easily understand why they can spend the entirety of their lives perfecting what they do.

The other thing, for me, is learning trust - and this goes to your paragraph above. Just an example, but I find such a temptation to slide chords up, usually on turn-arounds, back to the top (e.g., Sweet Georgia Brown); or, as I'm learning, Nous'che's I Can't Give You Anything, going from a D7 up to G7, where that temptation to slide is something I have to work with (as with any kind of rhythm embellishment, as you're talking about).

I find it easy to work on the ornaments. I find it incredibly difficult to work on making rhythm that is clean, light and spare - and to trust that's enough.

Jazzaferri · March 2013

As has been said ... And hopefully I am not being a broken record here.... Musicians spend the first part of their careers finding out how many notes they can put into a piece and the latter part learning how many they can take out.

Paul, most everyone who really works at their music struggles with how little to play at some point in their career. I know I certainly do. I still find it easier to gabble a bunch of notes or chords than to play a few in just the right way at just the right time.

Passacaglia · April 2013

Was out of town for a week, Jay, in the wild North with guitar and family, and that's about it, just got back. No, no broken record. There really isn't anything ahead, but hearing what I'm doing isn't what I want to be doing, and trying to make those correspond. Knowing my nature, all the talk's done, seems to me, just need work.