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Very good sentence there.
For me it's about concentrating on what you view is your weak spot. If your ears are good, & you don't have a problem hearing the intervals, before, during, or after they happen, but couldn't name what just happened, work on your arpeggios. If you know what's going on but struggle to imagine & articulate that imagination on the fretboard, work on your ears, intervals, transcriptions & licks to inspire.
Mine's not. It keeps insisting on changing beat, so although I'm so perfectly in the zone, always, my damn Franz is really out of step by about measure 8 or so. I've even had to shut it off, till it learns to tow the line.
(Sorry)
Great thread, Anthony. I've settled into a pretty rigorous, and pretty codified, routine, developed with the help of some friends following a similar path. But this thread has given lots to consider (and lots to re-consider, in a kind of "what kind of player do you hope to become?" kind of way); thanks for the thread and everyone else for sharing from your expertise.
pas encore, j'erre toujours.
I think I know how you experienced fellas feel about this, but for the sake of clarity. Assuming this approach, learning licks, phrases and so forth as opposed to straight arp acquisition, apart from song context.
Learn one tune, any tune, and mine it's licks and phrases, and play them over a billion other chords and songs; or learn the solos from a billion songs (say, 30-40), so you can take a lead chorus in a jam setting, on a number of tunes?
I ask, because it's a question I'm constantly working - basically, woodshedding v. playing with others. I run a weekly jam, pretty strong players, and do understand the sensibility Denis, Amund, so many others talk about - get with others, and play; playing with (preferably, better) others makes you a better player. So, having at the minimum the head to a body of tunes, and preferably entire solos....get out and play with others.
Also in mind is something Stephane Wrembel said to me at DIJ. I paraphrase, and take responsibility if I err in recollection, but: the real benefit of DIJ is just the ability to play endless hours with a legion of players, all in one spot. This is where you really learn some rich, useful things.
Now, presuming finite time, contrastingly, exhausting one tune, mining it, working all its useful lead material slowly and assiduously into etudes on all kinds of chords, chord changes, other tunes.
Thoughts?
pas encore, j'erre toujours.
He's a marvellous player, of course, and his book "Getting into Gypsy Jazz" is one that I've learned a lot from and come back to over the years.... very economically priced, too, I think my copy was $18.
But I've always secretly wondered about all those arps in that book's "arp dictionary"--- does he, or anyone else on this planet, actually know all these arps by heart and use them all in his playing?
In any case, I suspect that the Stochelo "lick" method is far more practical and achievable for most of us mere mortals. While it is true that "licks" have their limitations as well: I guess the main pitfall being that learning this way enforces a sort of group conformity to a pre-existing musical vocabulary, perhaps even to the extent of discouraging creative musicians from experimenting with their own techniques?
So, using myself for an example: I might (or might not!) get really, really good at playing all Stochelo's licks, but by that point, perhaps I've made myself into a sort of second-rate Stochelo...?
Of course, in my case this is a rhetorical question; I'm a hobby guitarist who ain't never gonna be a monster player, so who will really care if I'm basically a Stochelo copycat? (Answer: NO-BODY!)
But for a guy like Wrembel who went to Berklee College, studied music seriously to in order to become a serious musician, you can see why he might avoid the "lick" path for a more serious analysis of arps, scales, etc.
My two cents...
Will
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
I've often thought the same thing about those arps in his book. My theory is that arps take you even further down the line, once you start to hit a "lick" induced wall preventing your growth as an improviser. I personally have no intention of focusing primarily on the "lick" approach, as I think that can prevent you from actually improvising, but rather just regurgitating a bunch of pre-planned licks. The only improvising happens in terms of how you arrange them/which ones you end up playing in which spots, with maybe a little bit of improvising in terms of connecting one to another.
A perfect example of what I mean is to watch the difference between these 2 Bireli videos - the first is when he was a kid, and clearly played mostly a collection of licks at break neck speeds - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_uLEIphzFA
The second is him playing Djangos tiger in a Jam in a house, where you can see how much his playing has changed from a collection of licks to true improvisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnbk5Eq8-Kw
My guess is, he started out doing licks, and then after years of developing that style, moved on to understanding the guitar on a much deeper level. I would bet he can play all of those arps from Wremble's book.
That said, after I first got Wrembles book, I sent him an email on facebook saying I got his book and it helped so much... He replied saying " I don't remember much of what I even put in that book !" (no kidding !)
Cheers !
(warning - it's late. I say less with more words the later it gets).
Man, I'm a lousy guy for an opinion - you're leagues ahead of me in experience, my mind seems to change daily, and the only constancy I can claim is a pretty deep desire to master rhythm playing. The only thing I can say is that I don't know if it's a chicken or egg thing, regarding lead - but having started in working his book again, and more formally working on shapes as he has them laid out, other things previously unclear to me make so much more sense, and what were previously "just" licks do tend to "pop" better for me, now. But my experience here is so limited as to make anything I say regarding lead to likely be virtually worthless.
I will say - another approach that makes a lot of sense to me is Jack Soref's book. Don't know if you've come across his classes or his text, but I like how he hangs the CAGED system for basic major shapes so well, then visually lays out the relation of minors, dominants, etc. I will say that the one thing that always made Stephane's book difficult for me in the past, was the notion of memorizing all the closed and open positions he lays out so well.
On the other hand, I wonder if the particular approach doesn't matter, as much as just doing whatever it is so much, that it's just no longer thought of - if it's memorizing his billion closed and open arps, if it's memorizing the top 100 solos, if it's building extensions visually and logically from basic major, whatever the approach?
What I mean to say is, there seems to be a million roads in, at least now more than ever before. I've always found my greatest mistake is probably not in learning from a wrong "approach," as much as starting in one approach, and dropping it for a perceived lower fruit that promises a kind of instant mastery it's taken decades for the people promulgating these approaches to achieve. I'm not naturally gifted at this, I'm starting late, and so be it...not much but tenacity is going to make a difference, in my case.
I know this is simple stuff, but it's where yours truly is, I'm afraid. What I mean to say, is a sincere question, rather - I wonder if it almost doesn't matter - learn arps, learn licks, read music, do it all by ear (though I do have to admit this latter approach tells me in my gut, it's best - the struggle is itself the teacher) - regardless how it gets there, once having gotten the stuff in body, true learning and creation starts?
I don't know, as much as this might not make a ton of sense - something I've learned for me is that, regarding lead, my concentrating this last year almost entirely on rhythm, hasn't been for naught. I believe my right hand works so much better when I do try something like a waltz at middling tempo, than when I was practicing picking daily. Now, having the stones to keep trying it before others is another story....
Two things come to mind. Talking with a friend on the phone today - I'm stealing from his source - he mentioned another friend, someone who's been doing this long and well, now - said his goal was to be able to play with anyone, anywhere, anytime. Meaning, he's desired as a rhythm player. That's an inspirational notion, for me.
The other was from another friend here...the gift of acknowledging I'll "never be great." The puer aeturnus in me wars with this still. And maybe like yourself, if I can simply accept - "what the hell. So I am a [third - in my case. When I'm waxing full] rate Stochelo." I can think of worse things. I recall Elliott saying something to this effect - he can think of worse things than being accused of sounding like Daniel Givone.
Anyway, I'm likely going to end up the old guy in that backwater French bistro, used to cook French food, used to teach Japanese swordsmanship and other such nonsense, who can keep time and swing reasonably well on rhythm. And plays the same 8-10 waltzes in return for some decent Beaujolais (Fleurie, if you please - I do have my points I won't budge on).
pas encore, j'erre toujours.
Yes there is (kind of): you need to practice your ass off. BUT - and this is the clue - it is very important to either be able to correct your own wrong habits or have access to someone who can correct you, there's no point spending time on cultivating inefficient techniques or approaches.
I made a study in efficiency acquiring music skills. I did a case study with a 14 year old Antillian student who could only play three chords on piano in root position with horrible time. I told him: I will teach you music theory and improvisation for free under two conditions:
- you come by my house every two weeks and show me that you've practiced
- you take classical piano lessons with a Russian teacher I know and she will tell me every month she's happy with the way you practice
His mother told me he was walking around with the notebook I wrote in every two weeks with lesson material 24/7 reading and studying it and was playing the piano for 4+ hours per day.
Long story short: this kid worked like nobody I've seen before, got accepted at the conservatory and plays piano to a level which astonishes me and is in high demand in the latin, latin jazz and hip hop music scene here. He knows everything about music theory and is writing really high level and harmonically advanced music.
I was very stict with him, not always the nicest guy and sent him home when I thought he was goofing around but one thing I did do which benefited him is: I have a very analytical eye and ear when it comes to music and instrument technique and know the "shortcuts" when it comes to acquiring music skills.
My girlfriend started playing bluegrass banjo (bluegrass, another love of mine) two years ago. She went to a banjo camp in Nashville a half year ago and people there couldn't believe she only played for one and a half year and was from the Netherlands. I didn't do anything, only gave her the right practice methods and she is progressing on a weekly basis with enormous strides.
So , just practice, practice, practice man with efficiency. Don't waste your time with scales and arpeggios. The metronome and backing tracks are your friends and find a good bass player to work with. I know many people won't agree with me but that's my two cents right there.
Yup, totally agree.
I think you'll find that this is an achievable goal, Paul, providing you narrow down the kind of rhythm player you aspire to be.
Becoming a good GJ rhythm player isn't going make you into a good bebop, rock, blues, polka, big band, fado, Irish, country or bluegrass rhythm player. Each rhythm guitar genre has its own idiosyncrasies, which you can only really learn by actually playing that kind of music.
It's not that it would be impossible for one person to become proficient in all of these genres, but it would definitely be a Quixotic task... or perhaps a mixture of Quixotic and Herculean!
Some wise person once said "Politics is the art of the possible" and I think that's true of a lot of things in life.
So to me it's more realistic for a GJ rhythm player to dabble in genres that are fairly close cousins to GJ...
Dixieland-? Swing-? Bebop-? Definitely!
Big band music? Yes, if you're willing to work hard on your sight-reading, because the charts tend to be densely packed with demanding chords.
Personally, I've played 4-string banjo in dixieland bands for about 30 years now, and I would recommend this to any GJ player as a way to get more gigs, improve your ear for chords and learn to play a lot of standard tunes and chord progressions in many keys... well, most of the flat keys actually... dixie players don't tend to play in the sharp keys.
You can tune your banjo D-G-B-E like the top four strings of a guitar, so the shapes will all be familiar. Your fingers will probably be happier with a 22-fret "plectrum" banjo which is closer to guitar scale size than the smaller 19-fret "tenor" banjo.
While the learning curve for each player will obviously be different, I would guess that most proficient GJ rhythm guitarists could be out playing dixie gigs within a week or two of buying their first banjo. The only hitch might be for some people might find reading charts or lead sheets challenging, but this skill would be a valuable one for playing GJ, too, so what the hell...
Edgar Degas: "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the painter do good things.... To draw, you must close your eyes and sing."
Georges Braque: "In art there is only one thing that counts: the bit that can’t be explained."
The other thing I have found, courtesy of Kenny Werner,is to work on small amounts of material until mastered, effortlessly.
However, I have to disagree with Christiaan.....completely and utterly...on the scales and arps......that way works as well, but then one has to make up one's own lines. Scales, arps and short phrases(less than 2 bars) or memorize solos and others lines. Choose one path and go down that road....unless you are willing to put in a few years of 8-10 hours a day...then learn the alphabet,...and the words and the sentence structure......and do your own transcribing...do not use someone elses....
Why, because it is the act of transcription that deeply ingrains the music....not the endless repetition.....although that way works as well, its just not as fast in the long run.....
My playing is never stronger than in the days following solid ear training and doing entirely new things. Each thing must be mastered in it's turn, but with experimentation you can recognize that state of stagnation when you are ready to move forward with something new.
All roads lead to Rome, but you still need to travel on them to get there.