Selmer on EBAY

TPC168

touché there Bauer.

I think we all saw what happened tonight. I'm not getting into any dispute which involves Navy Seals. Let's just accept the fact that a well known Canadian Jazz cat had a holy grail guitar which he wanted to put on Ebay; however, he didn't know how to work it.

There are tutorials and FAQ type stuff for ebay, but I could see that as boring to read. Just list the damn thing.

Jeff Moore

Sorry for double post

Jeff Moore

So not only is the winning bidder mislead but the the auction now says that $12,810 took the guitar which I suppose is misleading hundreds of people into believing they could have won a Selmer at that price or a little higher.
I've bought a mess of guitars off Ebay and never was it rigged where buyer and seller didn't share a risk.
Correct me if I'm wrong but is the seller a fraud of sorts? Is this a special Ebay format that most of us aren't used to (private listing) or other?
I'm just curious if this is really how Ebay allows all sellers to operate or just some in a format new to me? Thought I knew the game pretty well. Seems insane if allowed by Ebay but not understood by buyers (me anyway).

Michael Bauer

Maybe he'll be banned from E-bay, Jeff, but I can't blame him. The "winning" bid wen't up about a second before the auction was shut down, so perhaps he bid on it, then shut it down to avoid any repercussions. There's no real point in speculating, I suppose, but we don't know that he wasn't the winning bidder in his own auction. If I had made the same mistake, that's what I would have done.

I suppose I am hurt by this, because it puts the idea out there that someone can actually buy a Selmer for that price, which will make mine harder to sell. But I do not blame the seller for avoiding what would have been a disaster for him.

I am having a little trouble understanding the outrage. I mean, let's be honest here. It was never going to sell for that. A bargain price for an oval-hole Selmer now would be more like $30K. That would be a steal, unless it was a structural mess...or painted paisley or something.

Jeff Moore

I've got no skin in the auction and couldn't have bid anyway.
I think the outrage comes when the goal post moves (or in this case, disappears) while your kicking the ball.

Bones

Actually, I'm not experienced at all on Ebay, never sold and only bought like twice, and I was amazed that he didn't have a reserve. I asked my wife about it and she said that she thinks that it is possible to have a reserve that is not shown on the listing (i.e. a secret reserve price).

If he didn't have a reserve on it I can't believe that.

PS- I didn't have any skin in that game. Too rich for my blood. Wifey wouldn't even let me pull the trigger on Michael's plasti-Mac (even though I wanted it really badly I have like 10 guitars already :-) and 3 are stacked in the bedroom because the closets are all full of them.)

Michael Bauer

True, Jeff, and fair enough, but the only person who has a right to be outraged is the guy who put the winning bid in, and for all we know, that could have been the seller. If it was, no one got hurt. This seems to me to be more about shattered dreams than a violation of some sacred trust. People like to think the steal of a lifetime is still there, and maybe at the occasional flea market, one can be found. But the internet has mostly ended that.

Jeff Moore

A game is only fair if the rules are known by both sides.
If the bidding on a no reserve auction is to be set by an outside party who understands the real value of an item, millions of Ebayers are going to be looking towards that outside party, but then that's not how auctions work. That's how stores work. Everyone is pretty familiar with the rules in those transactions.
I think everyone using Ebay might be interested in this one, if indeed the risk structure of auctions is going to change.
I bid in the last 20 seconds if something real pricey, but I've never got a "deal" like that or even close. I quit expecting such things shortly after I began using it. My experience is about 167 items bought and nearly perfect trust concerning sellers. But the idea that the bidding was going to move way up in the last second implies some technology or finesse that I don't have. That Selmer sold for something around $13 it seems. I don't know why, but I do care that Ebay has rules that everyone understands. If the seller can pull items in the last second, it will lower the value of the object being sold (I would guess) and more so, it will lower the value of Ebay altogether.

Bob Holo

My lowball snipe was about twice the ending price FWIW... so bottom line, given that and what the "Michaels" have said (you were both bidding?) that auction wouldn't have ended at $13k if it had gone full term - more like somewhere around $25k+ which is still a screaming deal. The problem with selling something like that on Ebay, is that anyone who knows what its worth is waiting for the timer to hit somewhere around 15 to 30 seconds before bidding depending on how good their internet connection is. The misconception about a sales venue like Ebay is that people think of Ebay as a 14-round bare-knuckles fistfight, when in reality, it's more like a pistol duel. The initial action is irrelevant. If you're a serious bidder, you wait till the count of 10 and spin and pull the trigger and hope to God you're a better aim than the other guy(s). But it would take a cast-iron stomach to let that kind of insane scenario play out for a guitar of real value. I sold an old Kay on Ebay once and it damned near gave me a heart attack. I'm not sure I'd survive selling a Selmer on Ebay. I sent Michael an email after it ended and said: "I don't blame the guy for ending it - if you're 59 seconds from the moment of truth and your $30,000 guitar is listed for $11,000 - you have three options:

A.) End the auction
B.) Shit your pants
C.) Options A & B simultaneously.

Lol.

But on a serious note - it does sort of allude to the concept of investment Beta. I mean, there is a reason that guys like Michael & RF Charle exist. Few people will shell out market price for a guitar like that without knowing it comes from a reputable dealer with deep knowledge of the product so that they have a high degree of expectation that when it arrives, there will be no "gotchas". This seller may be the nicest most knowledgeable guy in the world, but if the buyers don't know that - their bids will reflect their level of uncertainty... it's the same reason that AAA rated bonds are worth more. The bottom line is that Michael knows a lot about Selmers and if he has questions on very-high-dollar guitars, he calls me in and I get a room at a local hotel - take the guitar there - and go through the guitar for 5+ hours and then review the results with him in detail the next day. So he knows a lot about the guitars, he hires people to help him understand anything that he doesn't already know, and he has an insurance policy so that if the guitar is damaged in storage or shipping, the seller is covered. Probably the same for RF Charle and Jacques. Beta is the measurement of investment risk and buying a guitar that costs more than a car is something you do through a reputable dealer because that's how you attract serious buyers and hash out the price and terms and delivery over a sufficient period of time to make all parties happy before during and after the sale. As a guy who has purchased four fairly spendy guitars and sold two fairly spendy guitars... that's the way it's done. The most spendy guitar I ever sold was the smoothest transaction I ever made. The broker held my hand throughout - and after, he would only tell me that "The buyer was a movie producer from Britain and he was very happy with the purchase and wishes to thank you." and that's all I ever heard.... the broker wired me money the same day. The transaction was comfortable and the price I received was fair, and I paid a pretty decent commission to the broker for making it happen. Didn't regret it a bit. Selling that old Kay on Ebay though... that turned me into a nervous wreck ;-)

Michael Bauer

The buyer does have an out, Jeff. He can get buyers remorse and just not send the money. It happens a lot. How is that different? There are no real rules; there's just an exchange of money for a product. You simply can't expect a guy to take a $20-25,000 loss because somebody's Aunt Tillie might get worried that she won't be able to trust that she will get her next batch of Mason jars fair and square. Some people would have been hurt if he had sold it for the winning bid, and some people are going to be hurt because it even appears that he sold it for that. I am one of them, and I am not bitching. It seems to be all the outrage over this is feigned. Did anybody who's jumping up and down here actually put in a serious bid? If not what is all the prattle about?