Archtops and gypsy technique pitfalls

AmundLauritzen

Here's a long post/ramble/request of opinion. I'm sure there are other people here who have had to consider the same. Here goes:

I love archtops. I played them(and I still play them) for a few years before I got into playing Djangos music on Favino and Selmer copies.

As I was progressing in both styles, it became evident to me that I had to standardize my approach to picking(more on this later). One style had to accomodate to the other. Naturally, I chose to accomodate to gypsy jazz since using gypsy technique is important to get the right sound.

I have not looked back.

In fact, my playing has improved in many areas on archtop guitars when I play bebop because gypsy picking prevents the pick from getting "caught in the strings" so to speak. There is something about the right hand position that frees up the wrist a lot. Previously I would "miss" strings in the middle of a line, and be generally clumsy particularly when sweep picking. This leads me to my next point: sweep picking.

Of course, certain lines become more difficult when you adapt a picking style that dictates that each string change is initiated with a downstroke. Reverse rakes across the fretboard breaks that rule, but you still see Bireli and Wawau do it. So of course, exceptions can be made!


But the real problem I have encountered is chords. Because using a 1.8mm Wegen BigCity pick on .12 or .13 strings(depending on the archtop I play) does give great volume and force, and it is easier to plow through the strings with a pick that thick and beyond, rather than what most archtop players use.

The real problem here is the change in volume going from single lines to chords, as well as the clunky, clicking sound produced by the thick pick striking chords on thick strings.

I don't play pompe on archtops, because I play them in a bebop setting where I comp more pianistically. More rhythmic chord stabs and chord fragments. But still, the sound is not smooth when playing chords, but clunky and rough.

So I wanted to ask if anybody else are having these issues related to thick picks, medium to heavy strings and archtops. The reason why I chose to standardize my approach is that it would usually take me a good hour before I could transition between playing a Selmer copy and an archtop, because I used a different hand position and economy picking for archtops. I had to find a solution to make the transition as smooth as possible.

Any thoughts or similar experiences?

wim

I have a similar experience - I can't play an electric well anymore, seems with practising so hard on the right hand style for jazz manouche, I have now lost the "light touch" required for playing electric.

Lango-Django

Similar experience for me... I also play 4-string plectrum banjo and as you can imagine, chord tremolo is quite commonly used in that style. For this I use a fairly thin pick, a Dunlop 60 or 65 mm, and I don't have to hold onto the pick very tightly... in fact one of the tricks I learned is that as you strum, you can accent certain chords or beats by simply squeezing the pick

In gypsy jazz, chord tremolo is used less frequently but still I always find it challenging to do with a big fat Wegen pick... the pick just gets pulled right out of my grasp, no matter how loosely or tightly I try to hang on to it.

If anybody can suggest a solution to this problem I'd love to hear it...

Will

Bones

Before I had a Selmer style guitar I played an acoustic archtop. I was a beginner (still am :-) in this style so I don't know if this is relevant but the pick guard on the archtop was so close to the high E string that I would hit it when pushing thru the string using the 'rest stroke' so I took the pick guard off which actually helped me (forced me) to play with the floating right hand technique since there was nothing left to anchor my fingers to on the top of the guitar. Felt pretty weird at first but I got used to it pretty fast.

Jazzaferri

Try a blue chip...quietest pick I have ever used.

klaatu

The Dugain acetate pick with the tortoise shell coloration is also very quiet and warm sounding.

Matt Henry

Yeah, I'm also in the "can't/don't really play my archtop anymore because of the right hand" camp.

I feel bad about this because I have an old Epiphone Triumph that I love and I struggle amplifying my gypsy ax at our noisy restaurant gigs (and pretty much everywhere else).

I think chunking sounds like hell on an archtop and it isn't rewarding regardless of the pick I use. That makes it a double deal breaker, really.

I'd suggest using a jazz pick for the archtop if you're not ready to abandon it. The Dunlop Primetone is quieter than a Wegen. I like Klaatu's Dugain recommendation. Get two and send me one so I can see what they're like. =P

klaatu

Hey Matt - what year is your Epi Triumph? I've got a '46 that I use in my big band gig. Love it, great for that Freddie Green style rhythm. I had a Benedetto S6 floating pickup installed on it because it's hard to compete with an electrified bass, electric piano, and modern drum kit (none of which Freddie had to contend with), but I just use that to give it a little reinforcement.

I use a Dunlop Jazztone 207 for big band. Very quiet, and it really allows you to dig in. I wasn't aware that they made a gypsy pick.

Hemert

This might be somewhat of a lame answer but: I have played some gigs with Stochelo in which he played an archtop with his Wegen Big City pick. He comped like a piano player - stabbing chords - and it sounded great. So obviously this can be done.

I have a gig with the Dutch Philharmonic Orchestra playing in the rhythm section for West Side Story. I have a Gibson archtop on loan for that and I have no problems playing chords with the wegen big city pick. I actually did a gig with a pop singer (Idols winner) last winter playing on a Les Paul with heavy distortion and the Wegen pick never bothered me.

AmundLauritzen

Hemert wrote:

This might be somewhat of a lame answer but: I have played some gigs with Stochelo in which he played an archtop with his Wegen Big City pick. He comped like a piano player - stabbing chords - and it sounded great. So obviously this can be done.

I have a gig with the Dutch Philharmonic Orchestra playing in the rhythm section for West Side Story. I have a Gibson archtop on loan for that and I have no problems playing chords with the wegen big city pick. I actually did a gig with a pop singer (Idols winner) last winter playing on a Les Paul with heavy distortion and the Wegen pick never bothered me.

Maybe Stochelo uses light strings(lower than .12s ) for archtops? I've also seen videos of Mozes playing an Eimers hybrid archtop. Somewhat of a crossover guitar built on Selmer dimensions.

Here's a video I found of Stochelo playing a semi-hollow guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJeK2tvfasE

And here is Mozes on that hybrid archtop guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDD153BEpkk

Of course, the Rosenberg brothers are not average guitar players. So I have to crack the code somehow, find out what makes the chords sound so rough when I play. Since other people are having the same difficulty, I suspect it could have to do with string gauge.

Passacaglia

klaatu wrote:

The Dugain acetate pick with the tortoise shell coloration is also very quiet and warm sounding.

Agreed, Ben. My only issue is the contour forces me anyway, to use a lot more of the pick than I'd prefer (though I know that's, like everything, just feeling and adjusting). I play almost no lead, but of the picking I've done with the pick, a very warm sound indeed.