Django's guitar setup

BluesBop Harry

Very interesting thread!
I've long suspected that having limited use of his fretting hand Django would have gone for an easier setup.

He liked a fast vibrato and lots of bending, I know he was using 10's which would help that...
But low action makes sense for the way he used the third and fourth finger for chording, I bet they weren't very strong and his chord playing is very clean.
If you ever tried to play his chords and single note lines with just the index and middle you know how fast your hand gets tired...

As for live playing in large spaces, I think he would have a mic placed in front of his guitar. Wouldn't he?

The main problem with too high action, as Bob pointed out, is intonation. You do get more punch... but in trade for being in tune higher up the neck. More than 3mm starts you in the way of trouble...


@Jazz Gitan: Raising the (bone)nut won't help because the "real"nut" it's the zero fret... you would have to replace it with a taller one in order to raise the height at the low frets

wim

BluesBop Harry wrote: »

The main problem with too high action, as Bob pointed out, is intonation. You do get more punch... but in trade for being in tune higher up the neck. More than 3mm starts you in the way of trouble...

I don't buy this argument, at least not until someone (Bob?) explains the mathematics of the situation more clearly. The guitar is a tempered instrument, the assumption is that for good intonation is for the ratio of consecutive frets to equal 2^(1/12). So this depends on setup, right? If the luthier has built the neck/frets/bridge so that the intonation was perfect at 3.5mm action, then it might be out if you have it lower than that.

I'm not sure how luthiers work or whether or not they make the simplifying assumption that the neck is straight and flat when measuring out these distances, but I wouldn't be surprised if they compensated for relief and such - if you push the string down 3.5mm at the 12th fret, then you are stretching it by however many mm and sharpening it by however many cents and so you need to move the fret back by whatever distance - that sort of thing, it wouldn't exactly be rocket science, just simple geometry.

In practice, intonation changing with action is not something I've found particularly noticeable on guitars. I've played some guitars that seemed to have shit intonation no matter where I put the bridge, and some that were good over a large range of action provided the bridge was set in the correct (horizontal) position and angle.

Al Watsky

wim wrote: »

[quote=
I don't buy this argument, at least not until someone (Bob?) explains the mathematics of the situation more clearly.

You can have any action height you like if you move the bridge and nut or minus fret accordingly.
If a guitar won't intonate correctly ,subsuming that the frets are correctly placed, all that should be necessary is adjustments at the bridge and nut/fret.
Often guitars that will not play in tune have misplaced nut/fret problems.
Thats the long and the short of it.
Minus the maths.
What Blues Bop may be noticing is that if he raised his action to 5mm and does not move his bridge he's sharp. Thats likely true , but the solution is to move the bridge, how much to move the bridge has to do with the hight of the action and the pressure the individual player exerts. People do not press with exactly the same pressure. Or with the same finger angle. Lots of variables.
BTW yes you can have a neck that is not perfectly flat , you do in a sense compensate for relief, you could quantify it mathematically I suppose, what I do is use my strobe tuner. I repair and restore.
Builders use a compensation offset. So they take a scale length and add length to compensate for the stretching that takes place when the string is pressed down to the frets.
I know that many builders of fixed bridge guitars have to make adjustments after the fact. I'm one of the guys that makes his living essentially tuning peoples guitars. GJ guitars and arch tops are more forgiving in this regard , move the bridge and in most cases your done.
Unless you plan on building guitars or repairing them this is about all you really need to know about the topic.

Bob Holo

No, Enrique is right... for many reasons, intonation up and down the fretboard becomes more difficult with high action. If you want something you can prove to yourself, you can do a relative string stretch exercise. You probably know just by instinct and experience that if you stretch the b string a little, the note bends a lot. If you stretch the G string a little, the note doesn't bend as much. The greater amount of overall bend caused by a higher action, the more this effect is exacerbated.

That's one of several reasons, but it's the one that's easiest to prove to yourself if you want to do it:

1.) Tune your guitar to pitch
2.) Use a good tuner to record the pitch in frequency
3.) Simulate equal bending by turning each tuner exactly 1/4 or 1/2 of a turn and record the number of cents the pitch increases.

If the strings are wrapped around the posts (and not lumped up) the amount they stretch will be similar. Yes, it'll be a little off given that the thickness of the string is added to the diameter of the post given Pi*D (circumference), but that's a rounding error compared to the difference you'll observe. now consider that cycles per second doubles per octave... now consider that strings have multiple modes of stretch, elastic / plastic / inelastic / failure and that they vary in pitch change given how close they are to inelastic which is a function of tension which is different for each string... now consider that changing the action while keeping the relief the same changes the ratio of stretch low on the neck to the ratio of stretch high on the neck, etc. In other words, you can move the bridge, but it will not change the non-linearity of the interstitial relationships. If you re-cut the bridge to account for them so that everything plays in tune at both the zero & 12th frets, you'll still be out of tune as you move up the fretboard between the zero & 12th.

So... less stretch is better, on the whole. And all of this stuff changes with string length, density, core-to-wrap ratio & etc.

Sometimes, less is best.

Al Watsky

I still don't buy into that from the point of view of practicality.
Who is going to actually raise their action to the point that intonation is impossible ? and why ?
No doubt your math is correct but it seems that your scenario for failure of the system would presuppose that there was an extreme state.
Which would indicate system failure.
Which would say to me that something was broken.
So , you would lower the action ?
Or just wrestle with more numbers ? :bow:

Bob Holo

Al, In practice I've found that weirdness sets in around 3.2mm. From your first post, it sounds like you've found that too. Much past that and bridge intonation gets a bit extreme and barre chords don't move around the neck consistently - so you get that "guy who uses his whammy bar too much" out-of-tune sound. Also, new strings become more of a headache. New strings tend to play sharp up the neck till they have a few days of seasoning. This new-string stretch effect seems to get a lot worse with high action - so for GJ artists who change strings a lot - like once a week or more - their intonation bounces all over hell with high action and gives them fits. I don't play much or change strings much now, and I tend to use deadish strings, so it's less of an issue for me, but for guys who are playing 9+ sets a week and churning through strings, it is more of an issue. I'm not sure how MW plays with 5-6mm action... whew... that's out there, man. I wonder if that was his orange Marchione. He had SM rebuild that guitar a few years ago. Maybe the neck was in need of some love.

Jazzaferri

I guess to some extent it depends on one's ears. If I press the string down past the point of contact on my classic guitar the pitchiness drives me up the wall. The action on it is 3-3.1 mm.

If a guitar's frets are corrected so that it plays in tune with high action then it would need a refretting job, that would seem quite ugly to me, filling the old slots and recutting them again to a new measurement. ...or it would drive me crazy.

Ultrafox has slighly lower frets and perhaps GJ strings are not as stretchy but if I press hard on it I can hear a difference and it is very low action....fret buzzy low for a couple of weeks in spring and in fall. Once stabilized it goes away.

Personally I don't like high action on a guitar that is played up the neck.....I don't really like medium action either....

Maybe this thread is a promo for the joke .....how long does it take to tune a guitar......nobody knows....nobodies ever done it.

Al Watsky

Bob Holo wrote: »

Al, In practice I've found that weirdness sets in around 3.2mm.
AW- I think problems start above 3.5mm.
BH- Much past that and bridge intonation gets a bit extreme and barre chords don't move around the neck consistently
AW- It seems to be a matter of needing to over compensate which makes for more problems.
BH- Also, new strings become more of a headache. New strings tend to play sharp up the neck till they have a few days of seasoning. This new-string stretch effect seems to get a lot worse with high action - so for GJ artists who change strings a lot - like once a week or more - their intonation bounces all over hell with high action and gives them fits.
AW- New strings , if you know your guy is setting up with fresh strings every other day you have to make your choice at the strobe tuner. You can set up in such a way that its not a problem. The spike in sharpness that occurs on attack is more pronounced but happily the pitch on decay is usually pretty steady on the newer strings . The decay pitch is a big problem. I like to really examine the TOP at the minus fret or nut, getting that placed well for the individual instrument goes a long way to eliminating the need for overcompensation at the bridge. Its a tricky business, you really need to check temperament for every note to about the 5th fret from the open string as a starting point. Get that placed and then do the bridge. Its tedious but it works. Having good relative pitch or perfect pitch makes playing the guitar frustrating at times. Lots of adjustments need to be made, constant string changes. Its a bother. But we love guitars . So we put up with it.
BH- I don't play much or change strings much now, and I tend to use deadish strings, so it's less of an issue for me, but for guys who are playing 9+ sets a week and churning through strings, it is more of an issue.
AW- These guitars come up to pitch an stay there pretty quickly, which is a good thing. The Saverez fail precipitously , OK one minute gone the next, so it makes sense that players who are active need to change strings often. I've been recording and have had a guitar go south in-between takes, its a problem. Not to mention the humidity related changes to action height.
BH- I'm not sure how MW plays with 5-6mm action... whew... that's out there, man. I wonder if that was his orange Marchione. He had SM rebuild that guitar a few years ago. Maybe the neck was in need of some love.

AW- This was in the days of his Gibson endorsement , he was the golden boy for a minute, got a Columbia 3 record deal or its equivalent and had some good PR firm and solid management. It was a Gibson L5.
I saw the guitar and my first instinct was "Heat treat/Fret Level and setup.
It was a million years ago. Tons of relief lots of action height. I guess it was more like 4+mm under the low E and then down to 3.5 or so, bad enough I think. Was he using D'Add Chromes?, but it could have been round wound 13's . Pretty sure it was above standard classical height which is a basic 4.2mm-3.5mm . I actually think in 64ths out of old habit, so I'm making a rough conversion.
That guy was the chosen one and had chops to burn. Who knows ? He may have sold that guitar the next day(which guys do). After his records didn't exactly sell as expected everyone regretted not giving the nod to Russell Malone. RM has stayed in the spotlight longer.

wim

@Bob
OK, do you mean the amount you would need to move the bridge/frets to compensate depends on which string you have to compensate for? That's something I hadn't considered!

Bob Holo

Yes, that's it exactly.

And because the strings are not equally sensitive to stretch, if you change the action (stretch) for all strings equally, the required compensation change is different for each string. The farther you change it, the more out of whack the strings become (relative to each other) People can drill endlessly down a rabbit hole on this - intonating the nut and even the frets. Entire tuning and fretting systems exist to "perfect" intonation, but these systems tend to do more to "perfect" the bank account of the guy selling the system than actually address real-world intonation problems. Really, if you just have a reasonable setup - not even low - just "in the ballpark reasonable" Like for you - maybe that's 3.2 / 2.6 or something. If the frets are good, you would have to work your ass off to fret-out on a guitar with 3.2/2.6. I'm not even sure you could. lol... Then just tune at mid-fretboard, you'll be just fine. Neil Andersson taught me that. If you tune using open strings or the 12th fret harmonic, you're getting the open string tuning either way (because the octave harmonics are the only ones that are true to pitch, other harmonics are not, which is why guitars sound out of tune when a guy tunes using the 5th/7th harmonics technique) Neil frets each string at the 5th fret and tunes that way. That way, he's taking average string stretch into account as he tunes. It splits the difference between open notes and notes high on the neck. When he's done tuning that way, he can play a barre chord in the center of the neck that is perfect, and most of what he plays is only a few frets away in either direction, so he's generally in tune on the frets he uses most, even if the intonation of the guitar is a little wonky.

So for instance, fret the D on the 5th fret and tune it to the open G, and then work outward from there, tuning the A@5th to the open D and the G@4th to the open B etc. There is no "perfect" but it's all about minimizing error so you don't wind up with any really sour chords. Tough to fill a tip bucket with sour chords ;-) Open string tuning works great if you play a lot of open string chords - like bluegrassers do. But for jazz guys who live between the 3th & 10th frets... open tuning is less ideal. Best to "tune where you play".