Question regarding learning process

T1mothy

Hello there again,

I was wondering if you guys could tell me your opinion on how to reach this goal. The goal is improvisation. To be able to think of something good and to reproduce it at the spur of the moment. Im really not close to that. Especially because all the songs are so fast, haha. Meaning Im nowhere close to jamming with my friend. If we try and Im supposed to play lead for couple of bars I end up getting lost, looking for the closest note to where I am that would sound not wrong. Also I sort of evade playing solo s I ve already learned to play as that would not be improvising. Those at the moment when playing become the forbidden notes and I just get lost as already said.

On the other hand, I took All of me and played first 2 chords from C to E7. I memorized the movement and came up with a nice connecting line. But it took me 2 or 3 minutes. I then proceeded to E7 -> A7 and came up with yet another connecting line. That was kind of assuring for me that some sort of creativity-potential is in that dumb head of mine. Now my question is - Should I keep learning solo s of Django and other artists (Lollo, Fapy, Romane, Angelo are some of my favourites) or should I just get to the chord progressions and come up with my stuff even if it takes so long? Perhaps both? What should I stress?

Timothy

pickitjohn

@T1mothy

You may take a look at what Fapy has to say about this...
Fapy Lafertin gypsy jazz guitar lesson on All Of Me



just some idea's

pick on

pickitjohn :peace:

Buco

I watched a short promo for Denis' on improve and it's the best I've heard it explained. I'll certainly be buying that, it's a no brainer especially at that price, almost a giveaway.

@T1mothy I've been there and I know the feeling. I'm still there but I'm starting to see the signs of improvement. In short I came to GJ from rock but I never soloed or practiced soloing in my rock bands. I was a riff based guitarist with small bursts of single notes. I was solid doing that but I never or very rarely played any solos.

I'll try share some of my experiences and things I learned.

First remove expectations, they'll only be a source of disappointment.
People use different gears to get someplace.
All you need to worry about is being consistent in your practice if you wanna reach your goals.

I've had periods of working on some things, practicing hard for a couple of months and just not being able to do it. I'd give it up thinking maybe I'll never be able to do that, only to pick it back up after a few months and almost immediately being able to do it. That's why you need to give yourself a brake, take your time, work on things, and welcome the rewards once you reach milestones.
In general I learned that muscles and brain need to be left alone to shape themselves after you spend some time practicing. Sometimes it's only 20 minutes but sometimes, as I found, it could be a couple of months.
But that's not to say that you shouldn't strive for things.
You have to, otherwise how are you gonna measure your progress?
You need to chase that carrot in front of you.

I found that just going over major/minor scales for the last several years is starting to pay off. Kinda like "wax on/wax off" in that old Karate Kid movie.
Now I'm starting to notice that sometimes I'll lend on the note and the brain will just kinda recognize whether it's a major or minor harmony and fill in the dots of where I need to go from there and I can just continue playing down the line and sound good. Others like to use "learning the language", I see it as something you've done countless times and be able to fill in the dots instantly, sort of works like paint by numbers.
Maybe you noticed I mentioned "several years" just above. Yes I've been at for a while now, and many many more years playing rock but really only last two years I started dedicating practice time every day, or very close to it.

And I also noticed and learned that the amount of time spent matters less than the fact that you've done some playing every day.
Before, say I'd return from work late and super tired and think to myself "forget it, I'm can't practice now". I lost many valuable days thinking like that. Back then I thought I gotta put in half hour at the very least.
Now even if it's two minutes, I'll take that and not think twice about the fact it was two minutes only. Maybe those two minutes didn't build muscle memory or what have you, but I feel it's much more important to stay in there and keep consistency day after day.

All of the things you've mentioned will help you: learning other's solos, coming up with your own lines and much more. It's just that, again what I've learned, don't expect to work on something for a couple of days, or weeks, or even months and come out the other side knowing and having mastered it all. It rarely is the case for me.
But what I find that every time I go back to the same thing, I'm either not starting from the same spot or even if I feel I'm starting from the same spot I progress much faster this time around. It's more like building a snowman than a brick house. But the more compacted the snow gets the harder it is to melt away.

After all this perhaps too vague of advice, here's something that been helping me tremendously lately to get better in following the changes while soloing; slow the song down. As slow as it needs to be for you to follow the song in your head as you play along the backing track. For this I use iReal book app.
Sometimes I'm being ridiculous in how much I need to slow something down in order to play some simple solo but follow chord changes.

Two books that have been invaluable reads for me for both practical advice but even more motivation:
Effortless Mastery by Kenny Werner
and
The Practice of Practice by Jon Harnum (Jon is a buddy of mine but the book kicks ass)

I don't know how much all this makes sense and I don't have time to go over it and re-read 'cause I wanna put in a half hour practice before band practice tonight

Good luck!

Buco

Petrov

@Buco Awesome advice! Thanks for sharing.

Jazzaferri

Read the practice of practice heed the advice, listen lots to others, and learn to,play what you hear in your head

Dave Leibman (a legend in jazz saxophone) said it usually took several months for a lick he (Even at his level) worked up, to start showing up in his playing. Kenny Werner, author of Effortless Mastery and a fabulous improvisor wrote of a similar experience.

Chiefbigeasy

Brother, I feel your pain. But, let me ask you this: have you ever heard Ella Fitzgerald scat sing? If so, have you ever tried it yourself? This may sound a little silly, but here's what's been my own big revelation: if you can scat sing it, hum it, sing it, you can play it.

I can prove it to you. Do you remember George Benson scat singing and playing the same notes for his hit single "Broadway"? He basically solos over two chords and sings the same notes he's playing. The trick is, the solo he's playing is very simplistic and straightforward (for the most part). If you're a rock 'n roll player, remember some of the solos you copied; now, sing the solo and play it at the same time. It's easier than you think. I've even managed to harmonize with myself, singing harmony a third above or below the notes I'm playing.

Now, if you have Band-in-a-box or an even less expensive app like GypsyJazzJam, you can put together the chord progression for a tune. If nothing else, record yourself playing the chord progressions several times slowly. Then, play the tune progression and, without your instrument, sing the melody and attempt some vocal improvising. I'll bet you have some pretty good solos in your head already. Now, it's just a matter of getting it from your head to your fingers.

If you don't feel you have as many ideas in your head as you'd like, fear not. The more you listen to this music, the more you will begin to think in this style. I've got a thread currently open discussing my own search to begin thinking and phrasing like early Django. Several respondents wrote some very interesting and enlightening comments regarding how to think about soloing and improvising. I'm focusing on the earliest Django solos because I want to work my way through his progression of thought as he developed his own soloing. I think the advantage to doing this is to absorb the music he was listening to and hear it in my own head as well.

To that end, I am also learning his early solos note for note. It helps me think about his phrasing and melodious style. "Melody" is the watchword here. His early solos all seemed like wonderful melodies in their own right, even beyond the actual melody of the tune he was playing.

Buco

Jazzaferri wrote: »

Dave Leibman (a legend in jazz saxophone) said it usually took several months for a lick he (Even at his level) worked up, to start showing up in his playing. Kenny Werner, author of Effortless Mastery and a fabulous improvisor wrote of a similar experience.

Yes that's been a big revelation to me hearing the same examples, proving that there's very little magic only a lot of hard work. I heard Joscho say the same thing in the workshop I took with him when he came through Chicago. Said he's working on this lick and practicing it very slowly and it might take 3 months before it's ready for live performance. Same thing said Bobby Broom when Jon interviewed him for his book.
It put things in perspective for me.

Jazzaferri

Something I have discovered, when I can sing a song or hum, scat or whatever the melody line of a tune while playing The rhythm with a solid feel but relaxed hand, improvising on that tune is easy, whether I have nothing behind me, just a metronome, rhythm track or actual human. All four options allow for different explorations. My two faves are nothing and human but the others work.

jazzygtr

I agree with the importance of trying to sing what you play and then getting to the point that you can play what you sing. It's a great thing to do and work on. I have been adding this to my practice routine and it really just helps bring the music alive for me. It helps me feel "closer" to the music as well, proving to myself that I'm not just able to play something due to little more than just simple muscle memory.

Buco

Petrov wrote: »

@Buco Awesome advice! Thanks for sharing.

Oh thank you for reading.
I started by thinking "let me just write down a few of my experiences and get some practice in before the band practice". Looking back at it I was like what the heck?!

Franz Morales

Lots of good advice... I'm in the same boat, playing this style for about a year now, I have solos playing in my head, but only manage to play a tenth of those. I still get lost in the chord changes too, though I am able to manage if the backing track is at a forgivable bpm.

What I do now is I try to figure out the phrases in my head and practice those. I try to solo in my mind when I listen to GJ, then figure those out once I get my hands on a guitar. Transcribe enough solos, pretty soon you get to come up with your own variations on the licks you've learned. The best advice I received recently - when you learn a lick, practice it at different keys then come up with at least 3 variations of it.

I try to solo in my mind when I practice my la pompe. You get to practice rhythm playing while letting your creativity for improv run wild.