Sideways

MattHenry

Okay, so after reading that Gineaux interview I finally put down my Wegen 2.5mm and switched to a 2mm sideways Dunlop. I'm not loving it so far but I'm going to stick with it until the end of the year to get over the initial sense of unfamiliarity.

I was talking to Sami, who recently switched from a 2mm Gator to the 1.5mm Delrin. I have a 2mm Gator and so far I prefer it to my 1.5mm Gator for both my oval hole with Argentines and my archtops with Thomastiks flats. That said, I like Sami's idea about a smoother Delrin pick for round wound strings like the Argentines and a rougher Gator for archtop flats.

Let's all abandon Wegen together and we can get a timeshare in Florida with all the money we save!

kevingcox

You know, if they made a "dogbone" style Dunlop that was essentially two completely overlapped Dunlops with the pointy ends facing opposite directions I think that would be my perfect pick but I cannot get comfotable with that tiny point between my fingers.

PapsPier

I didn't understand this part of the interview at all. I have tried to play with the round corner of my wegen 2.5 but the sound is quite awful: maybe a question of habit or maybe, and more likely, I didn't get this point. Could somebody explain? Is it to play with a thinner pick but with the round corner instead of the pointy end?

Thanks for your help

kevingcox

Yeah it doesn't really work with a wegen, it is better with a dunlop or something. It seems a LOT of high level players do it.

wim

So welcome to the club! And your wallet will thank you

gator 2mm, 72-pack (!) for 15 bucks http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/417R2.00

and the purple derlin 1.5mm http://www.amazon.com/Dunlop-Delrin-1-50mm-Lavender-41P1-50/dp/B0002GJ4AY/

Almost everyone in Paris plays with the dunlops!

Tried it about 4 years ago when I saw bireli's style, but I didn't like it and couldn't get a good sound and went back to a wegen then later a guzz. In hindsight it's because my technique was wrong. Nobody in Australia was doing it, I couldn't get a good sound and I didn't have anyone to show me or anyone to copy.

Then I tried again after studying with Adrien, Benoit, and Gonzalo at DIJ 2013 - after seeing that all these guys hold dunlop pick in this particular sideways fashion, and they each get a great sound, better than anyone you will hear playing with a wegen.

So in one of the workshops Gonzalo showed us properly how to hold it and "dig in" to the notes, and now I never switched back since.

It really is a good "round" tone and better than the wegen or guzz picks, once you get used to the slight adjustment in technique required.

klaatu

The sideways Gator is also VERY quiet with regard to pick noise. Wegens always sounded a bit scratchy to my ears. The sound is also warmer, the Wegens tend to be a bit harsh.

Jim Kaznosky

I find myself using the gator at home more, too. It does have a great sound once you get to a comfort level.

PapsPier

Whaou thanks for your explanations! I'll sure buy one to try. When in Paris, I didn't pay attention at all to the pick the musicians used. Except, the amateur musicians I played with, and almost all of them had a Wegen. I've tried other picks I found at Francois Charles shop: a bone pick and a special one, in acetate supposed to last longer. But the Wegen is the best for me.

Is the 72pack not too big? Do they wear down quickly?

MattHenry

Nice photos, Wim!

Paps, yes they wear down much more quickly than a Wegen. I wish I could order 3 dozen Delrin and 3 dozen Gator. 72 of one kind does seem like overkill.

Just fyi, Amazon also sells 12-packs at like 33 cents per pick instead of 20 cents each in the six dozen. They're three for a dollar at actual shops too, pretty much.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002D0CJY

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002GJ49A

Jehu

So what sort of adjustments have you guys found you need to make to your technique?

Wim -- good picture on how to hold the pick, but can you expand a bit on the "digging in" idea?

MattHenry

I think I was in this Gonzalo class with Wim at DIJ 2013. It struck me as just his way of describing that gadjo picking problem that a lot of folks have from not developing the twisting wrist properly.

Gonzalo talked about not being afraid to commit to picking right through the string rather than the striking or plucking attack that can sometimes develop from playing other styles. So you'd look at what your hand is doing right after the pick leaves the string: if your hand is pulling away from the strings and away from the top of the guitar you're doing it wrong. It's also wrong if you're extending the pick out with your fingers to reach between the strings and out again each time.

Denis, Dario, and other great teachers on the DIJ staff talk about this the equivalent of "digging in" too. Dario said something like, "If you're not consistently landing on the string below after every downstroke then you should really slow down, back up in your studies, and practice that until it's your natural attack."

The last thing I'd say from my experience is that it should feel like your wrist angle is not only back (as in away from the top of the guitar) but also down (lower than the pick when you're looking in the mirror). So "digging in" feels less like leading with the pick and more like a subtle twist of the wrist that allows the pick to drop down through the string to rest on the string below. The movement is with the hand, not the fingers, and the pick just comes along for the ride. I feel like I'm getting the hang of proper right hand technique and I think the gist of "digging in" is just to drag or drive down through the string rather than any sense of plucking with the pick.

In terms of adjustments, the knuckle just behind my index fingernail is starting to get cut up (Gonzalo says his is completely dead on his index and ring finger, I think), and my playing at gigs is quieter now so I have to resist the urge to tense up or play harder to make up the volume.

I really don't like the sideways Dunlop tone that well so far - particularly amplified - but I'm gonna stick with it, damn it.