Django's triplet chromatic run in Minor Swing

rgrice

Happens all the time @Chiefbigeasy! I'll have two gigs in a week and on the first play terrible, forgetting chords, melodies, etc. And on second got play better than I ever have! I always play better, smoother, faster practicing than at a gig, too!

Jim Kaznosky

@Chiefbigeasy I can hit these around 180-190 when I work it up with a metronome. My goal is 220 comfortably. I've been working on this solo sporadically for a few years. Every so often, I change my fingerings.
I agree with Denis that Yakov's fingerings are likely the closest to what Django plays. It's not what I would play.

Jazzaferri

Best to practice mostly really slowly in very small sections. Then after a few minutes rip it at full speed see if you have that piece then on the the next phrase.

That's the most efficient way but I find it so very hard to do that...distractable kid I am

@Jim Kaznosky , I agree it's best to use the fingers gs that work best for you....all of us have different shaped fingers and hands......mine are more suited to my hobby of stone masonry than guitar...so what Dennis or Django or others can finger one way, I often have to find a different route. It is nice to be able to play a note though and then just slightly roll my finger to cover the next higher pitch string at the same fret.

Chording takes lots of practice to get em clean.

Buco

Chiefbigeasy wrote: »

Here's a funny thing, though. I've heard this happen to other musicians as well. There are some nights when, after being thoroughly warmed up, I can hit this triplet part of the solo almost perfectly and at a pretty good clip, faster than my previous limit. I do it over and over just to confirm that I can. And then, out of nowhere, I lose the ability and I am back to my less than perfect renditions.

What's up with that? Ever had that happen to you?"

What kills me, I'll isolate and practice a difficult part and after whatever time I'll be able to play it fine on it's own but put it in the context of the rest of the piece I'll mess it up every time. Play it on it's own again, no problem. Put it with the rest, screw it up.
It kills me.

Jazzaferri

One of the greats of the jazz world....can't recall who at the moment said it took about 6 months for phrases he learned to start to come out in his playing

rgrice

Same with me, @Buco! Or I learn a beautiful solo and play it perfectly at home and screw it up totally in a gig!

Buco

@Jazzaferri I heard the same thing many times over, Bobby Broom and Joscho Stephan said the same thing that I can recall recently. I think it could've been Sonny Rollins that you're referring to. Makes me realize more and more about the false perception about talent being the prevalent reason for their skills. No, I think number one reason is they worked their butt off for so long, and still do.

@rgrice yes that happens to me as well, I'm thinking lately because in practice you're relying more on your ears, you play something in your room and you hear it perfectly well. You use either a metronome or a backing track. Then you come to perform it live and it's a whole different situation, the backing track, your band, sounds different and there is background noise you or your brain has to deal with and you don't hear yourself as well as in your room at home. So your mind has all these different inputs to deal with and you need to rely much more on your muscle memory and less on your ears, it's just a different situation than your training at home.
I once heard Kurt Rosenwinkle say he's only maybe 70% as good live as he is in his own space.

This problem I was talking about though is why can I do something when it's isolated but not when it's a part of something else? I've been trying to my analyze my hand positions at the start of the phrase and compare the two and see what kind of impact that may have.

Sorry for hijacking the thread Rob, to make my rambling somewhat relevant, what I just mentioned above was happening to me when I was working on Minor Swing myself and had trouble with the same part. Could play it on it's but always had trouble to play it within the rest of the tune. Although I cheated with the latter part of the run, I got the chromatic scale decent after a few months of practice but couldn't get the arpeggio that follows immediately after for the life of me, so I cheated by playing it in the glissando style instead of single notes and it worked pretty well.

Rob MacKillop

Hey, no problem. It's good to talk!

90% of my concerts were solo (mainly lute, historical guitar stuff) and I was very aware that the pieces always sounded different depending on the venue. So I soon gave up on the notion of a "perfect or ideal performance", and approached each gig wondering what such-and-such a piece would be like that night. I looked forward to finding new things. So much for musical interpretation, but technique was affected by venues as well. I knew that some venues would inspire my technique, while others would be a struggle. I found it helpful to abandon any idea of a technically-perfect performance.

Note I'm talking in the past tense. I haven't played a gig for years. It's a stressful business! Not having that perfect performance in my mind, musical and technical, helped a lot, though. At the same time, you want to do the best you can. Sometimes it comes together, sometimes it just doesn't. That's life...

rgrice

@Buco I know what you mean and do it myself! It must be a contextual thing in the brain. Taking it out of context maybe isolates it in the mind?
You're right about dynamics in performance, also. Sound is always an issue as you are aware of...we mainly play cafes where acoustics are typically bad and crowds are noisy. I've played so many gigs relying on muscle memory and people thought it sounded good! I couldnt hear anything so wouldn't know. There are always so many variables, aren't there! I usually rely on improv because of this problem. Love the 70% idea. I don't feel so bad.
Rob is a great guy and I'm sure he doesn't mind!

Chiefbigeasy

I forgot to mention this in my earlier post, but I'm surprised no one has brought it up: I think the biggest and perhaps most obvious stumbling block to getting this phrase down correctly is the fact that we are moving from a gross motor skill to a fine motor skill. That is, the passage just before the triplet run is a series of sliding 9th chords enunciated with a forceful tremolo across all the strings. You only have a beat to adjust your pick – if need be – not to mention your hand position and mindset, to move from a phrase that was loud and proclaiming to something much more delicate and complicated.

I'm sure this kind of situation happens and other Django tunes, but this is the most obvious example of this juxtaposition that I've run into in my early studies.