Django and Charlie Christian

MichaelHorowitz

This discussion was created from comments split from: Practicing, Sincerity, Awareness, and Passion!.

Jeff Moore

I like "Out of Nowhere, Django appeared". It does seem that way. There was no precursor or antecedent. He just showed up.

Charlie Christian has a pickup named after him. He was fantastic and idiosyncratic like Django. Comparisons break down into hierarchy and diminish the gift each original musician brings. We all chose to "study" Django here so he's at the top of this subculture and that's as it should be.
I doubt advertising wizbang put Christian on top. I don't have any info, never read much about him, but he stands out on his own for easily recognizable reasons.

dennis

yes but you haven't read the entire article where i talk in depth about CC, i have and am studying CC's music in depth from an ethnomusicological perspective. I also mention that comparing CC and Django is not to show that one is superior, but it is an important thing to do because as far as solo guitar players, they were both at the forefront at the time, and django had a head start what with him being 6 years older.

There is a CC pickup and a CC festival, but we refer to Selmers as Django or Gypsy guitars, when we hear chunk chunk rhythm guitar, and maybe a violin we automatically think Gypsy Jazz when Django wasn't the only one doing that at the time, we have django festivals in japan, australia, india, russia, chile, usa, canada, italy, etc... i can only think of one CC festival off the top of my head.

This is not a superiority contest because as Teddy said, very few people cared about Django after he died, it was all about CC and still is in mainstream guitar culture... CC 's popularity is of course not solely due to media power, but of course his talent.

The argument is that had Django not been a Gypsy, it would not have been what it is today. And the Sinti's persecution also plays a great role in all this, his legendary status in recent years is attributed to 3 factors (imo), his genius, his gypsy background, and the gypsies preserving a codified form of his music

dennis

and proof that i am not downplaying CC's genius: i am doing extensive research on his music, be sure to read the youtube description on the actual youtube page:



I am not a django fan boy, if i praise him , it is because i praise him after having done extensive research on his music, the context of in which his music appeared, etc.

and of cousre i also praise CC, they are both great. Comparing is defintely a controversial thing to do, but i feel in this instance necessary. it does not mean that one's music is better than the other, that is purely subjective

i mean let me be honest here, Adrien Moignard is one of the biggest talents in Gypsy Jazz today, i produced an instructional video for him, and in working with him, i really really got to know him as a musician. He is all that... BUT , to be honest, i dont own any of his CDs, i almost never listen to his music, not because i dont like it or respect it but simply because my tastes lie elsewhere.. My tastes within the genre often lie within musicians who are considerably simpler than Adrien

Teddy Dupont

In the 50's and 60's, Django post-war playing was almost universally derided by critics as tired, lacklustre, uninspiring, the same-old-stuff (à la Boris Vian!!!). I remember Benny Green, a very influencial British jazz critic, broadcaster and saxophonist, playing Django's 1953 recording of "Confessin" and saying how it illustrated Django's sad decline when compared with his 1935 version.

In America, the attitude towards Django was even worse. In 1963, I wrote an article which started "I have always been amazed by the manner in which many critics, particularly American, either completely ignore (or pass over with the briefest of mentions) Django Reinhardt when considering the jazz guitar."* - It took a long time for America to truly embrace Django.

There were a few Django advocates even in the 50's and 60's, Max Jones of the "Melody Maker" being the most influencial in the jazz community. Then of course there was Ken Sykora and Diz Disley.

* I have just re-read that article and I'm embarrassed to say I was a bit negative about some of Django's post-war playing. My only excuse is the stupidity of youth.

Russell Letson

I came to the Hot Club forty-plus years ago by way of Grappelli, who I found through my general fascination with fiddle jazz. There wasn't much original Hot Club material available in the 60s and 70s--some 1940s sides on an Everest (I think) LP and later the Pathé multi-LP chronological set, segments of which would show up at bigger record stores. (It took me years to assemble even a partial set.) I specifically looked for jazz-fiddle and Hot Club-inspired albums in Denmark and England in 1979 and found Svend Asmussen, the Ferre brothers, and Finn Ziegler.

When I first explored jazz guitar, I didn't read the jazz critics much, so I didn't encounter any dismissals of Django or the Hot Club tradition. I did note how many of the players I enjoyed cited Django as a major influence and inspiration. Charlie Christian got props, sure, but western swing guys were all over Django, as were Les Paul and Bucky Pizzarelli.

Since those early days I have encountered several kinds of "that's old hat" responses to gypsy jazz--and to swing in general (never mind older styles of jazz--"straw-hat music"), but I take those as expressions of the tastes of listeners who have divorced jazz from its dance roots and think that bop and post-bop are the only genuine articles.

Al Watsky

I think the reason that critics and other academics were dismissive of DR in the 60's was that the style did not keep pace with American trends in Jazz at that time. In light of the "soul jazz" and "hard bop" movements , which were subsequent to "bebop" , the French Swing style would have seemed to be very old hat, especially rhythmically .
DR sounded pretty fresh in his latest recordings. He was following trends up to and including "bebop" , but he was and is most associated with with the "swing" style and an early style at that. So critics in the 60's and 70's were not going to be that interested . Its a commonly stated fact that much of the development in the jazz field has come about through rhythm. The main differences in the swing and bebop styles are said to be rhythmic, despite the beginnings of advancement in harmony. So CC would naturally be the critical winner as he was clearly in front on the rhythmic front. CC also because of his access to better amplifiers and pickups has what most folks would consider to be a more "modern" sound.
I started listening to CC in the early 70's . He was everyones hero. I was first hearing DR at the same time. To my ears DR was very European sounding. A most foreign sound to my ears at the time. CC on the other hand sounded like America and was swinging hard. We all heard the genius in DR, but we could relate more directly to CC. That essential Texas, Oklahoma swing.
Now at this late date we all acknowledge the unique innovations that DR made and in fact it would seem his influence was felt more in the Pop field through the agency of Les Paul and others.LP's use of tremolo and glisses and other effects can I think be directly traced to the influence of DR.
In the Jazz world on the other hand CC was the primary influence for most guitarists. Before the rise of Wes Montgomery , Charlie Christian was king and DR was a nostalgic side note.
Our current interest in these older styles , the work of Eddy Lang and Django has encouraged us to reassess these earlier influences. It seems that every 15 years or so "swing" is rediscovered. I've lived through 3 swing revivals. It seems that each time we dig a little deeper.
So thats a very good thing .
Finally though, artistically its all about how the music feels, for the listener.
The farther the music strays from its dance roots the less charm it has.
Swing and all earlier forms of Jazz were dance musics. We abandon the dance floor at our own peril.
When I was living out west in the 70's it was my first experience of playing to an audience that would dance to Jazz. Couple dance to.
I remember setting up and playing in social clubs and playing Bebop and shuffles and middle aged folks got up and danced and danced well.
Thats what this is all about. Thats what swing is about.
Play for good dancers and you will play differently. The dancers will teach you how the music is supposed to feel.

MichaelHorowitz

Teddy Dupont wrote: »

It took a long time for America to truly embrace Django.

There certainly has been a lot of progress, but I'd still say Django is for the most part a marginal figure in the US jazz scene. You won't find much Gypsy Jazz at any of the mainstream jazz festivals, taught in any of the college jazz programs (except for a class or two at Berklee), or mentioned in any of the jazz periodicals. It exists largely as a separate genre with very little interaction with other forms of jazz.

Russell Letson

I'm with Al on the importance of dance and the centrality of swing in understanding jazz at a gut level. There's also the possibility (I'd call it a fact) that the guitar itself is a footnote in most jazz histories, and that bop and post-bop strains have dominated "serious" criticism for most of my lifetime, and focusing on bop means starting with horn players, particularly sax players, and moving outward in the notional combo from there. Only bass players get less attention than guitarists.

Most of the guitar commentary I see starts with Christian and emphasizes how his playing is horn-like. Freddie Green gets some attention as central to the Basie rhythm section, and maybe someone will recall that Nat Cole's trio included a guitarist or that Joe Venuti once played with a guitar player who died young. A lot of the technical guitar-centric commentary I see focuses on who "invented" the electric guitar, often from a rock viewpoint--"Whoa, dude! Charlie Christian didn't invent it after all! And who's this George Barnes guy?"

Teddy Dupont

stuart wrote: »

I'm not sure Django is that well-known even today and he's a footnote in a lot of jazz books I read, even recent ones. We live with his legacy all the time but beyond the Django coterie it's not well known.

Django will always be a niche musician but his popularity today is much greater than in the 50's and 60's. There really is no comparison. More importantly, it is the appreciation of the quality and lasting impact of his music that has fundamentally changed even amongst American critics. They may still feel Charlie Christian was a more influential jazz guitarist (and he was) but accept that Django was an incredibly talented musician who lifted the guitar out of the rhythm section and has had a lasting impact on non-classical guitar playing.

How many other musicians, whether guitarists or not, have festivals all over the world dedicated to them?

Stringswinger

All who play Jazz guitar (or Country guitar or even Rock guitar) stand on the shoulders of both Django and CC. Django lived a bit longer and perhaps developed a bit more then CC, but comparing them (and rating one over the other) is the province of fools.

We all owe both an unrepayable debt of gratitude.