Django and Charlie Christian

Buco

Jeff Moore wrote: »

There are jazz musicians whose melodic thrust is so diffused that I can't even listen willingly. Django continually takes odd turns, but in his case, and even when its truly "weird", it seems to fit and sometimes sounds like an "obvious turn of melody" when its in fact wasn't obvious at all until he played it. Exotic and familiar all at once. Dissonance converted into sugar. A practical impossibility. A Houdini kind of effect in the mind.

Love how you put this into words!

They were equally important as pioneers of the non classical guitar music.
It happened to me a few times when people who are informed but not necessarily fans of either asked me "but what about Charlie Christian?" when I'd talk about Django.

Jazzaferri

I wonder if Charlie Christian ever heard a Django recording.


On Teddy's Niche comment. Jazz is now down to about 5% of tracked recorded music sales and downloads. 10 years go Diana Krall and Kenny G accounted for about 5.5% of jazz's 11% market share so it is probably safe to assume that it has fallen from the dominant force in the 30's and 40's to 5%. GJ is probably in the rounding error area.

Bones

Django, CC, Oscar Moore all very under-rated IMHO. I think many are influenced by them and others whether they know it or not. At least it seems like they are somewhat getting the credit they deserve now. BTW, I think Django's later recordings still sound fresh and current. Timeless actually. I'm sure he could sit in with anyone today.

dennis

i'm in the process of transcribing about 30-40 charlie christian solos. His solos are really great, very musical, lots of fun, and he's definitely a pioneer, but his playing is essentially based on specific patterns. Very effective but also very predictable. In transcribing his solos, sometimes i would hear the first two notes, and then write out the rest out on my own before listening, and it would be exactly that or very close. On occasion he had a few surprising ideas, but by and large very simple. Rhythmically, he was quite tight, but still very simple, pretty much starting his phrases on very obvious beats. He does have patterns that are very reminiscent of django (such as the dominant 9th shape on the A string, which django frequently used). His solos are pretty much like pieces of puzzles. dominant chord = play X dominant shape, major chjord = play X lick... This is NOT a criticism, it is purely objective based on my extensive research...

Charlie Christian was probably the first guitar hero in America, and America embraced that fact throughout guitar history.

django, on the other hand, would also play patterns, but very often manipulate them in completely unexpected ways. Harmonically, he was so out there.. playing Cm7b5 over Cm... playing Bm7 over G... Playing Bm7 Bbm7 Am7 over G E7 Am... playing Bbm over A7, etc.. etc.. he was all about voice leading as well, when he connected chords, it was very reminsicent of classical music, the chords are carefully connected in his melodic statements.. in contrast to charlie christian's puzzle based soloing (again not criticizng CC here ,but it's a fact). Rhythmically, django was extremely aware , starting phrases on 1 2 3 4, on off beats, anticipating harmonies, ending phrases in various spots of the measure. He was implying so many harmonies thsat were not there... Django's tiger, the E7 section, in the first chorus he went up to F7 (and now today django nerds play the F7 in the rhythm, when it was originaly just E7)... playing Gb7#9 over C7 ... etc.. etc.. and the timing, my goodness! sometimes on the beat, sometimes laid back, sometimes rubato, it was just so varied; but he always knew what he was doing, perhaps subconsciously... Listen to ou es tu mon amour, his soloing is sooo laid back, making it a nightmare to notate... stochelo rosenberg plays a cover of that solo note-for-note but he did not recreate the laid back feel, instead he quantized it to fit with the rhythm section.

i haven't even talked bout his technique either... he was dynamically aware, had incredible picking technique, took full advantage of the guitar... harmonics, vibrato, slides, tremolo, ghost notes, ornaments, pick harmonics,etc.

Django's genius at that time was unprecedented and still today very advanced... Again , i am not a django fan boy, my assessment of his genius comes from many years of transcribing and analyzing his solos.

And I'll repeat myself one last time... i am not saying django's music is better than CC's , not at all, that is purely subjective, and i enjoy both equally. But there is no denying how far reaching django's musical vision was...

and that is the unfortunate thing in both guitar and jazz history, his genius is really underestimated in the media... people focus on his handicap , and for them, that was his genius... like i said, soloing wise, he didn't lose much .. the use of his ring finger really.. a lot of his solos are very much in the same line of thinking as 3 finger players such as wes, benson, christian etc... every now and then he would just have to put one note on the next string to make it easier to play with his 2 fingers...

The only thing he really had to change were his chord voicings for accompaniment... and to a certain extent for chord shots..

Al Watsky

stuart wrote: »

Not a very exact measure but the artist page for Django on Facebook has 645 likes. Birelli has about 900, Charlie Christian has 11,000. Wes has 130,000. Hendrix has 8.5 million!

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Steveareno

stuart wrote: »

Not a very exact measure but the artist page for Django on Facebook has 645 likes. Birelli has about 900, Charlie Christian has 11,000. Wes has 130,000. Hendrix has 8.5 million!

Steveareno

Yeah, but Jimi's last group was called the "Band Of Gypsies". I wonder if he listened to Django and Charlie Christian? I heard Oscar Moore wound up managing a parking lot In downtown LA. Love his stuff with the Nat Cole Trio.
Swang on,

Sorry about the double post.

Bones

I believe that I heard that Jimi was influenced somewhat by Django or at least listened to him. Also, check out Jimi's picking hand, he uses the bent wrist/free hand style that so many greats use (not to say that he patterned that after Django, just an observation on my part).

Stuart, yeah that's what I'm talking about. Under-rated for sure. Not to take anything away from Jimi, Wes, et al but really????

Dennis, I have not transcribed much CC but based on what little I have done would you say that he is more of a 'vertical, position' player compared to Django who used more horizontal patterns (presumably due to his two finger technique)?

Lango-Django

I just read Terry Teachout's recent biography of Duke Ellington, "Duke- a Life of Duke Ellington" which claims that Hendrix' use of the fuzz tone and wah wah pedal were directly due to the influence of the early thirties Ellington brass players (Bubber Miley, Cootie Williams, Tricky Sam Nanton) who used various mutes to achieve a growling vocal sound.

Seems likely to me that Jimi liked to listen to old jazz, and that crazy chord he uses at the beginning of "Purple Haze" was certainly a fingering that Django used, for example in "Honeysuckle Rose".

Incidentally, the Hendrix biopic "All Is By My Side" seems to gone directly to DVD/cable TV , and I recommend it, even if, like me, you're not really a big Hendrix fan.

VeedonFleece

dennis wrote: »

In transcribing his solos, sometimes i would hear the first two notes, and then write out the rest out on my own before listening, and it would be exactly that or very close.

Dennis, that's a really interesting point. But I wonder if your ability to predict the melodic shape of CC's solos has something to do with the fact that CC's influence has spread so strongly through bop, hard bop, and then even post-bop jazz guitar players that his stylistic vocabulary is quite deep within you already? Maybe, it is precisely because the very wide mix of classical, 'guitaristic', and even folk, elements in Django's style have not been absorbed into the tradition of US-based mainstream jazz guitar that Django's lines seem all the more unpredictable, surprising, idiosyncratic (to us all). Your ability to predict CC's solos just become a function of his legacy's success. Perhaps they would not have been nearly so predictable to an attentive listener sat in the front row of a Goodman gig?

Chris