How does "North American" GJ differ from the Euro style?

pickitjohn

@Scot

I always love when you take a moment to chime in, I have to agree and you list of players has giving me some new folks to check out.

Have Lots of Fun & Pick On

Buco

I agree with Scott though I don't think these guys who came out slightly critical are seeing US bands peculiarities as a lesser thing.
That said I wouldn't agree that Europeans have an advantage of being closer to the source. Maybe prior to internet but even then just a maybe. The way I see it it's up to the individual how immersed a person will become, not up to geographic location. Sure being able to see the top guys can be advantageous to you but only if you're purposely studying the tone and sound and hand position and listening with dedicated ears when watching those guys live. If you're a casual concert goer you can see Bireli 5 night a week, it won't make you a better musician.
You'll only be steeped in it if you're born in it or dedicate a part of your life to live with gypsies who jam on it day and night, like Dennis, Rino, Stephan W and others who can nail the classic sound and feel have done. Others are left to their own imagination and commitment regardless of where you live.

Yes there is some uniqueness to some of the American players and just like Scot accurately stated it's the people who don't concern themselves about details but can be and many are higly accomplished players.
Then there are others who nail the pompe sound and feel when it comes to rhythm, every rhythm player in Alfonso's band comes to mind: currently Jason Miller and before him Adrian Holovaty and others before.
Then there's my new favorite player Koran Agan who's trio currently plays the Django repertoire in straight jazz style but his other band Hot Club of New York stayed pretty close to home.
Neither is better or worse although I only enjoy listening to bands that are fairly traditional sounding unless they're doing something completely different like Koran's trio or Gonzalo's original works. So guys like Frank, while I think of them higly are not on my playlist.
How spread out and balanced or unbalanced all these different approaches are is anyone's guess but only a guess. When you talk about only one slice of the pie, and It's mixed fruit pie, you're leaving out other flavors that come along.

Al Watsky

I like the language based explanation of the rhythm and phrasing differences.
Past musical experience is also a factor for sure .
Not to mention personal preference.
Not every one is Sinti or wants to sound like one.
What about the Lautari ? Not all Lautari play Lutes, there are guitars everywhere. Hard to hear in a brass band though. Ah , well.
If you listen to that you may prefer that feel.
Last year at DIJ Samson played some examples of his fathers harmonic sequences that were identical to sequences I learned from a student of Sabicas.
Samsons favorite guitarist is Frank Gambale ! after Django I guess..
Like Sam Cooke said, " a change is gonna come."

Russell Letson

As has already been pointed out, there is no single center of GJ, and perhaps never was one, even among players who are authentically/ethnically/by-upbringing "gypsy." Instead there is a stylistic space within which there is a range of variations. If it were possible to map such a space, I suspect we would notice a cluster of players who are historically, geographically, technically, and even familially related, surrounded by other clusters or filaments of players with different sets of connections from, say, other musical traditions. And even within the cluster that could be marked "actual gypsy players," there would be some, like the Ferre brothers or Bireli Lagrene, whose stylistic range connects them with non-gypsy traditions--and gadjo players who have managed to absorb one or another of the central-cluster technique-bundles well enough to be indistinguishable from their models. It happens in every tradition I've encountered, from the blues to old-time to slack key.

Jazzaferri

In the beginning, there was Django.....it grew from there.....and will keep growing.

Everybody realizes, when they think on it, we are not the same as we were 10 years ago, musically, personally etc.

Stochelo doesn't sound the same today as he did 20 years ago. I love where he is going....and what he did in the past. It speaks to me so there is something still there I have to learn. Django even louder.

I feel it is a bit closed minded for a musician to be playing identically to ten years ago, but it happens and that's OK too. As Bird said ...there are no wrong notes...with the addition unless the player thinks them so.

Bones

Hipness is what it is....

ChrisMartin

While I fully expected someone like Scot has above to get overly defensive about the skills of American players, I did clearly state that I did not want to generalise or claim one players from one continent were better than others. Scot's remarks are all valid, but Shenandoah Jim originally asked what are the differences between American GJ and Euro style and differences there certainly are. One of the posts probably explained better the overall feel by comparing it to how the languages and accents one is surrounded by affect one. Of course there are many variations within Europe too, but my main observation was maybe not aimed at the more obvious soloists as the rhythm players. Even then I am not labelling them all the same but I have heard some that retain a uniquely American swing feel. The worst, which may be an isolated case, that I have heard is an American version of La Pompe that is so far out it is laughable. Out of courtesy to the guilty I will not name names, but there is one who has posted lessons on Youtube who demonstrates how not to play.

scot

It's simple. There isn't a definable difference between N American style and Euro style because there really isn't one American style any more than there is one European style. This place is way too big and way too spread out; plus it's traditional here to play your own way and not copy. I put up a short list of excellent N American players who cover a broad range of style and influence - Chris, you could have gone and listened to some of them but instead you want to bring up this one poor guy (if it's who I think you are talking about, he lives not far from me and really isn't a bad player) again. As far as I know, the regrettable video isn't even on youtube any more. People make mistakes.

I may be a bit defensive about the skills of players on this continent, but that's because I have seen how far players here have come since I started out back in 1993. From time to time people do come here with their condescending posts about N American players, and I don't like it. The fact is, there are many excellent guitarists playing Django-influenced music in N America, and most of them can play a fine "leger et sec" rhythm, which actually isn't all that hard to do. They don't sound like gypsies? Of course not. But where is it written that you have to? Or even have to want to? If you think you don't like American players, fine. Continue not listening to them.

ChrisMartin

Scot, I repeat I am NOT putting all American players in the same class as THAT Youtube clown, read my post again, I appreciate all are coming from different backgrounds with different skills. All I was doing was answering the original question as to what is the difference, and it can not be denied there are differences. So, to defuse the argument and allow for both continents, let's try it this way.
America invented Jazz.
Good.
The Gypsies migrated across southern Europe and north Africa to eventually arrive as the Manouche/Gitane/Tzigane/Sinti or whatever tribes and brought their ancient traditions with them evolving a distinct musical style.
Like Jazz did in the U.S.A.
Great.
Now let us for the sake of convenience say this music was arrived at 100 years ago in France/Belgium/Holland/Germany etc. At the same time as Jazz is growing and coming out of New Orleans and the coloured dance bands of the south.
So, by some chance of luck, Django, a Gypsy who has assimilated the Gypsy traditions, hears some Louis Armstrong and becomes a Jazz fan. We now have the invention of Gypsy Jazz, (and yes, I do know about the Ferret brothers, Gusti Malha etc) and Django is credited with popularising a new musical genre.
Since then there have been American Jazz guitarists who have been trying to get a grip on the Gypsy thing, while there are Europeans who may come from a Gypsy background who are still trying to get the Jazz thing. Then there are Europeans who have grown up exposed to both. Jazz came to Europe with the invention of the gramophone; Gypsy music probably did not get heard in America until much later, and even then only within a small circle of 'cognoscenti'.

dennis

greetings from vienna! again, this is a huge topic of which i ve spoken about so many times. in fact i thought i did a pretty thorough analysis of this in my last djangobooks article where i talk about djang and gj. in this month s article by joe perkins , my interview portion talked about this as well....

the answer depends on how one defines gj; a question i have no desire to answer. everyone has their own idea which is fine... for some django was gj, for some frank vignola is not gj, etc... i dont care about such categorizations, but i do care about false information being perpetuated.

anyway, indeed everyone is unique as scot says; at the most basic level, everyone is inspired by django reinhardt, if that s what gypsy jazz is, i can agree. nonethelss there are certain trends as chris martin observed... a lot of it in the actual rhythm playing, and it s not a question of north america vs europe but more non gypsies vs gypsies.

there is a popular trend among non gypsies (europe included, and even paris included) where the rhythm is played in a certain way.

gypsies themselves have different ways of doing it, but to my ears , they have always sounded distinctly different from the non gypsies. there are obvious exceptions, but they are quite few imo. however, as i mentioned many times, this is merely a description of sound; it in no way describes one way as being inferior or superior.

as i explained in my joe perkins interview, rhythm playing is ultimately more complicated than that, and the challenges are numerous for both gadje and gypsies.

a lot of thr codified contemporary gypsy jazz also comes from stochelo rosenberg whose influence it seems nowadays, a lot of people are overlooking... if anyone knew gonzalo from 13 years ago, u remember him playing stochelo solos note for note, rocky gresset, one of the biggest progressive players today. was a stochelo clone 15 years ago, etc...

personally, i like players that are honest.. that s very vague, i know but i ll leave it at that. there s no particular musical formula for being honest, i can enjoy tommy emmanuel/frank vignola s idea of gj as much as stochelo rosenberg s.

my two cents, whatever they re worth...