How does "North American" GJ differ from the Euro style?

Russell Letson

To return to the original question: I would trace whatever differences there are between North American and European flavors of GJ to the various players' listening histories. I suspect that there are a number of younger North Americans who came to swing via the Django/GJ-revival route, with relatively little experience of American swing (as distinct from bop-and-later jazz) and the dance culture it was part of. (This impression is based partly on sitting in jam sessions and noting who seems familiar with what parts of the century-long tradition of jazz and swing.) And I think I see among younger Europeans a route that somehow led to Django via bop/post-bop jazz, even among some players with authentic gypsy backgrounds.

I came to Django nearly 50 years ago, in my twenties, after growing up with swing and jazz. When I finally got around to playing swing rhythm, I had two sets of sounds in my ears: a classic Basie pulse (which is to say, Freddie Green) and the early Hot Club (including Django's rhythm stabs behind Grappelli). I wonder what my rhythm playing would have been like had I either grown up with gypsy elders as my primary models or come to dance-rooted swing via post-bop jazz. (I've watched bopsters working to acquire Freddy Green's swing--it can be a reach for them.)

Jazzaferri

Thank you @Stuart. My role models for rhythm are Django and Hono Wintersteiin

scot

Why do you keep bringing up that poor guy? He really doesn't have anything to do with this discussion. He's one misinformed guy out of hundreds of really capable guitarists.

Correct me if I am wrong, Chris, but it seems to me that when you say "gypsy jazz", you are talking about the style of music that is played mostly by ethnic European gypsy guitarists who for the most part don't apply any other influence to their playing - the codified style, to use Dennis' word. And you do seem to consider this to be the only "authentic" way to play Django-influenced music. It is a way to play Django's music, sure, but it's not the only way.

If you are mostly interested in the way that gypsies play this music, that's fine for you. I like that music just as I like all forms of this music, but I realized early on that I was not going to be able to play like that in this lifetime. I looked elsewhere and quickly discovered that there are many different ways to play music inspired by Django and some of it does not have much to do with the way gypsies play it today. The best example is Alma Sinti, an eclectic band led by the late Patrick Saussois, a fine guitarist influenced as much by Grant Green and Jo Privat as he was by Django. You could always hear the influence of Django in his playing, but it was integrated with his other influences and his own ideas. You could say the same about Christian Escoude, the entire Ferret family, Rene Duprat, Henri Crolla, Rene Mailhes, Laro Sollero, Ranier Voet, Maurice Ferre, Koen De Kauter, Bousquet, Francis Moerman, Antoine Boyer, Paul Mehling and countless other modern players in Paris and elsewhere today.

In the US, we usually take a pretty tolerant view of musicians' stylistic experiments. Throughout the music world here, people are always trying out wacky ideas, sometimes they work and sometimes not. I have a healthy respect for tradition and in some kinds of music that I play, I don't tinker much with the established way of playing - OK, I'll sneak in a IV chord between I and V sometimes... But for jazz, my attitude has always been: we already know some of what works, let's see what else might work.

Of course there is a difference in the way this music is played here. We're not gypsies, our culture and our way of life is different, our indigenous music is not the same as in Europe. No, the N American style is not the European style, but it's not wrong, either, as the intentional snark (you expected indignation) of your posts implies. If you can't find something to like in the playing of Paul Mehling, Alfonso Ponticelli or any of the other fine bands here like the Clearwater Hot Club, that's just sad.

Then there is this:

ChrisMartin

Hey Scot, calm down. I do not "keep bringing up that poor guy", I just started the sentence by saying I was NOT comparing everyone else to him. I am not saying, and did not say anyone was better or worse, more or less authentic, or that the European Gypsies are all better than American players. I was just answering the original question (which you seem to have missed completely) which asked what are the differences. I too could list a lot of names of names from both sides of the Atlantic to add perceived weight to any statements but I am bored with it all now. I am sure there are many in Europe who are just treading water trying to learn to assimilate jazz into a style of their own, and equally there are probably some in the USA who have copied the whole Euro Gypsy thing down perfect without having a voice of their own. So what? All I said was there are differences, there always were, and there always will be, as many others have quoted on here, due to many quirks of cultural history, exposure to different sources, individual tastes etc. So, one LAST time, I did not say either was better or worse, so there is nothing for you to keep fighting against; just accept the difference.

NylonDave

Hey guys. Sorry for the necropost but I was interested by this topic and am new to the site.

I was very surprised that in a three page discussion note choice was not mentioned. The thing that makes a lot of players both in Europe and from America sound inauthentic is the use of the flat seventh on a minor tonic as their sole option. I am not saying it isn't done, just that it often takes me out of the style when I am listening. I particularly dislike a flat seventh in the harmony for a minor tonic when the music wants comes to rest, as often the flat seventh won't allow it to and a six or six nine would be much more pleasing.

I agree with Dennis that whilst there were loads of guys known for playing 'Gypsy Jazz' in America who sound more western swing than anything else youtube now abounds with great players from that continent whose playing is utterly convincing in the style. And Dennis is welcome to take pride in that fact.

With regards to Stochelo as a prime influence, and I him LOVE BTW, I have to say that I hear more of Rapheal Fays in Stochelo's lead playing than I do Django. And with respect to note choice Tchan Tchou seems to have used a lot of melodic concepts fairly systematically that were touched on by Django only in passing, or with that famous 'luck' of his.

D.

rgrice

Wasn't Django interpreting American Jazz? Had he not been, this discussion probably wouldn't exist. He brought his cultural Gypsy flavor, the way say, Hank Garland brought his cultural Southern flavor to jazz. Neither was a big hit with American Jazz purists. Neither followed those before them. Django wouldn't be playing his 30s style had he lived longer. He wasn't playing it in the 40s or 50s! It's all very relative.
I love rockabilly and played it exclusively for over 30 years. Does Brian Setzer play just like Scotty Moore or Cliff Gallup? He can't! He didn't grow up with Les Paul, Merle Travis, Chet, et al as his main influences. He heard Hendrix, Clapton, Jimmy Page. He had 30 more years of music and guitar players that shaped him. Can he play as well or better than the original rockabillies.Yep.
Does it matter? Nope.
Had Django been a purist, we'd have never heard of him in the US.

NylonDave

At rgrice.

I do agree, you could reading my mind (no need to bother with my posts then).

A few days ago on the Banjo thread.

'.... what makes the famous original recording of Minor Swing really interesting to me is that I think it is actually an attempt at a minor blues in the American style and all that goes wrong actually became part of what characterises Django's style'

Setzer is great fun, a great showman and a way more serious student and exponent of guitar than he makes out. I guess people are still eating up the 'I can just kinda like do this man schtick'. Plus sa change.....

D.

AmundLauritzen

Listen to Hank Marvin play "Djangos Castle"



I like how different it sounds, because Hank is a musical player, and then it will sound good regardless.

It's a typical American way to play not only the lead but also rhythm guitar.
If you view it through a purist lens, then of course you can say it's not the "authentic pompe" so to speak. But if you take away that bias, empty your head and listen to music like you used to before learning all this stuff about the right and wrong way to do it, it's a different thing.

Then there is no need to argue for how it's good or to intellectually justify it. You know it when you hear it.

NylonDave

@Amund Lauritzen
'Then there is no need to argue for how it's good or to intellectually justify it. You know it when you hear it'

I agree.

I find that the intellectual enquiry should follow when we aren't hearing 'it'. Most importantly in our own playing but sometimes we can hear things in other people's playing that we find objectionable and then it can be good to intellectually explore and then avoid the element that we dislike.

But again I do agree, if it is right then it is right. I don't mind Peter Green licks in my Django at all. I object strongly to his playing of Stanley Myer's Cavatina though.

You know Hank is British ?

D.