Developing a better sense of time

Jazzaferri

@stuart when playing music I absolutely agree with you. We do several pieces that would be described as rubato(ish) as we deliberately speed up and slow down in different parts of those tunes.

But to practice timing (not chords or lead playing) IMO best to work against something that is absolutely accurate. I beleive that once one has good time, spending a few minutes each day with a metronome and practising where on the beat one is playing is a good idea. As Casals said when asked at 92 why he still practised....."well, I think I am getting a bit better"

Ion the end, being able to play really accurately timing wise is a very important skill. Where one chooses to play in reference to the pulse is a matter of artistic interpretation. But Iif one can't control that....well..........'nuff said

wim

MattHenry wrote: »

Sure, maybe Denis and the studs he works with still pick up a bit sometimes

) )

oh boy ... does pick up means the same in the states as in oz ?

Al Watsky

In some genera speeding up gradually is the norm and correct. It needs to be controlled but it is an element of some styles. Especially if its the last dance tune of a set. Its a trick actually.
I was working with a band a few weeks ago and almost gave the drummer a heart attach . At rehearsals I told him that we were going to do a gradual accelerando over the last 2 choruses. He could not get it right. Could not feel it. Not enough immersion in the style. It was OK it created tension which is the purpose of the device.
Student musicians, especially adult amateurs, beginners actually always want formulas , sometimes there is no formula, just immersion that gradually leads to understanding.
There are some rhythm sections that have such a perfect over view that they can experiment with individual members playing in front of the tempo, or behind or various combinations of both. Every variation has a different psychoacoustic effect and can be used to great effect.
You learn that some folks can't and some folks can and try to hang with those that can.
Rhythm isn't some amorphous blob and its not some thing you can scoop up and put in a box. Its the subdivision of time, the regularity of which can create the illusion of movement in space. That only happens if the subdivisions are perfect. Once you can achieve that and remember how that feels. You can begin to make adjustments that have an effect that you can use to create tension.

crookedpinky

Anytime I've spoken with serious players, i.e Fapy, Lollo et al, they emphasise the need to maintain the tempo - not to speed up or slow down. That's different from conciously playing some sections at a different tempo but I think my point is that they are coming from a tradition where maintaining as near a constant tempo has been literally drilled into them as part of the overall learning process. Of course no-one is 100% all of the time but I would suggest that the best players might drift a but but not to the point where it's obvious - unless you measure them against a click track. If "perfect timing" is a recent thing then why were metronomes invented in 1815 ? I think the ability to maintain a tempo differs is separate from and not an expectation as a result of the use of rigid click tracks in recording.

kungfumonk007

Wim - apparently it doesn't because I think most of us don't get what is funny :0)

dennis

crookedpinky wrote: »

If "perfect timing" is a recent thing then why were metronomes invented in 1815 ? I think the ability to maintain a tempo differs is separate from and not an expectation as a result of the use of rigid click tracks in recording.

because with the popularity of DAWs, it has become quite normal to quantize tracks, especially with the use of programmed virtual instruments... each transient is lined up perfectly..

when playing with just a metronome, people sometimes are a little bit behind, a little bit ahead, close to center, dead center, etc, it drifts a little bit..

the idea is of course not to make any kind of speeding up or slowing down immediately noticeable, but with all the intense transcribing i've done, i 've noticed lots of drifting in famous recordings... again these kinds of drifts are only noticeable with careful listening, if you casually listen to minor swing 1937 you probably won't notice it because it's so gradually, that it doesn't feel that wa.y.. that's the difference

dennis

for instance, when making the backing tracks for seb giniaux's upcoming balkan lessons, i had him record the backing tracks, it started off with a click track... then i programmed the bass, and then i lined up the bass with his rhythm gutiar, because he drifted in every single song... sometimes he'd rush a bit, sometimes he'd drag a bit.. depending on the song...

if you listen to it, you won't notice it, but i have right there visually lined up against a grid, and i see all the fluctuations

dennis

btw since it's a hobby for people to misconstrue what i say, i never once said that metronome was a bad idea. i said very clearly that 's a great tool, but it is also not the ultimate tool. playing with other people and adapting to everyone's timing is equally important..

i used to play with a guy who was the king of the metronome, he was really able to do all sorts of crazy stuff with the metronome, it was quite impressive, but when it came time him for to play gypsy jazz metronome in a real live setting, he kept dragging, and it wasn't because of lack of technique... he got used to following the metronome but he wasn't able to adapt to what the band had to be doing

in the end, both aspects should be worked on

Bones

I think it is important to strive for 'perfect' time (even though that isn't really possible) to at least be able to have 'good' time. One thing that is really difficult for the rhythm section is if someone is constantly dragging or rushing and you are having to constantly be trying to pull (or push if you prefer) them along. It makes the job a lot harder and reduces the flexibility of the situation if the rhythm section has to always strictly and firmly insist on the time. I.e. strive to be ABLE to have the best time possible (most of the time) so that one isn't unconsciously (not deliberately) deviating. That goes for everyone (not just the rhythm section). Drag or push if you want for effect but do it on purpose. Everyone has low energy days or hyper-exciting gigs and there is a tendency to deviate but practicing good time will minimize errors IMHO. Another thing for rhythm sections is to not necessarily lock in with the soloist if they are dragging or pushing for effect. If the soloist is trying to layback or push and the rhythm section keeps trying to get right underneath them, well, you can see where that will end up. Another good reason to have a good internal clock which is not easy.

kevingcox

dennis wrote: »

btw since it's a hobby for people to misconstrue what i say

No, no, we all understood quite clearly that Sebastien has sloppy timing and is just a disaster of a rhythm player. ;-)

Speaking of timing an DC projects, that Tcha project blew me away how he was able to individually record tracks where he intentionally slowed down small sections from time to time in his arrangements. I can't imagine that was click-tracked. Astounding. Can you give us any insight as to how he approached recording those sorts of passages?